Are you guys concened about some of the subraces?

[seethings]

i think considering the hours some of us have put into subrace development a lock out hak pak would be criminal. If so any chance beta test subraces are allowed to stand?

In reality making it well known that Dasaria is human based is the best option and then having large areas and quests resticted to humans. Imagine significant parts of Caer human restricted. I read alot before coming onboard dasaria ii (never played one) and I did not really realise you were against subraces. If so i may have developed a different charachter.

This is a DM perogative and would ensure many more humans. Tinkering with the NWN2 race and class stats seems the wrong approach to me.

LAST suggestion. rather than create work for yourselves approving subraces case by case... you could allow a player who has two 10th level humans in exhistance on the server have auto access to one subrace character????????


regards

[UltimaBoB]

We should never get into a postion where the most powerful 5-10 characters on the server are Drow and Svirf.

Find me a solution that fairly gets around that problem and I am all for it.

[Michael]

So far, there seem to be no real arguments against putting xp cap on 160,000 - seems like the best way to go about it, too.

Why the beating on the long deceased horse?

[Greensleeves]

So far, there seem to be no real arguments against putting xp cap on 160,000 - seems like the best way to go about it, too.

Why the beating on the long deceased horse?

There are a number of good arguments against this in this very thread.

[lankycheese]

Not really, only by those who don't understand the system. I can't actually see any logic in not locking the XP cap.

[Michael]

So far, there seem to be no real arguments against putting xp cap on 160,000 - seems like the best way to go about it, too.

Why the beating on the long deceased horse?

There are a number of good arguments against this in this very thread.

Please give me an example, then?

The only objections I noticed were over the xp cap limiting ability of ECL classes to become more powerfull than non-ECL - hardly anything valid given the purpose of an xp cap in the first place.

[Greensleeves]

Not really, only by those who don't understand the system. I can't actually see any logic in not locking the XP cap.

Nothing at all against you lanky, but this assumption is a bit dismissive and incorrect.

-Capping experience does NOT achieve the intedned effect of ECL, which is simply to slow character progress. Balance considerations have already been made for all of the races at level 20, and is why an exp cap wasn't designed into the 3.5 rules. I still maintain that after racial spell resistance, the human/halflng bonus feat is the strongest racial bonus.

-In the case of any of the dark races, the 2 or 3 character levels in the 18-20 area are far more useful than any of their racial benefits.



The appropriate way to limit ECL racial power, is to snip away some of the racial bonuses.

The appropriate way to limit ECL racial population, is to require an application to play one.

[Zandes]

perhaps it is just me, but i think that spell resistance is the least imbalancing feature of a ECL race

i mean, a drow or whatever got 31SR at lv 20
a level 20 wizard got 1d20 + 20 to SR penetrating check, 1d20+24 with greater penetration...whick means a 7 or higher to bypass it
a level 20 wizard with assay resistance got 1d20+30...which means automatic bypass

this is if i remember the SR checks well :p (monks got 30SR at level 20, but i never saw a "monks imba because they got 30sr!" rant :p)

i think one of the ways of balancing ecl races would be a "silent" script that takes into account those ECL modifiers so that a level 4 drow would be considered level 6 for quest rewards so that they won't simply need more time doing lower level quests but they'll have to do higher level quests with their characters on a lower level...

i hope i explained myself lol :p

[fabianorp]

Sorry to bug you with a noob question but: What does "ECL" Means?
And does it also aply to the Eves sub-races (just like Wood Elves)? Or to only ones that have a level ajustment

[Stormknife]

-Capping experience does NOT achieve the intedned effect of ECL, which is simply to slow character progress. Balance considerations have already been made for all of the races at level 20, and is why an exp cap wasn't designed into the 3.5 rules.

A human with 6 levels of fighter is ECL 6 (6 levels in a PC class + Racial ECL). A drow with 4 levels of fighter is ECL 6 (4 levels in a PC class + racial ECL of 2). A drow with 6 levels of wizard is ECL 8 (6 levels in a PC class + racial ECL of 2).

So, no, ECL is NOT simply to slow down character progress; it also accounts for innate qualities that make the race inherently better than a race without ECL. There's no cap in PnP because PnP can go as high as the DM is willing to go...but that level 18 drow wizard is treated as a level 20 character in all respect (experience earned, starting treasure, etc).

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/intr ... Adjustment

I still maintain that after racial spell resistance, the human/halflng bonus feat is the strongest racial bonus.

There's aren't any feats that give you between a 35% and 50% chance of completely ignoring a harmful spell that's thrown at you. I'd gladly give up the bonus feat on a human to get something like that.

[Michael]

Not really, only by those who don't understand the system. I can't actually see any logic in not locking the XP cap.

Nothing at all against you lanky, but this assumption is a bit dismissive and incorrect.

-Capping experience does NOT achieve the intedned effect of ECL, which is simply to slow character progress. Balance considerations have already been made for all of the races at level 20, and is why an exp cap wasn't designed into the 3.5 rules. I still maintain that after racial spell resistance, the human/halflng bonus feat is the strongest racial bonus.

-In the case of any of the dark races, the 2 or 3 character levels in the 18-20 area are far more useful than any of their racial benefits.



The appropriate way to limit ECL racial power, is to snip away some of the racial bonuses.

The appropriate way to limit ECL racial population, is to require an application to play one.

NwN2 is not D&D 3.5, however. I would see the ECL classes to be more of an issue in terms of final game balance, and hence my leaning toward the xp cap. In other words, for a class with easier progression earlier on, the player chooses to pay with limited ending power.

You mention that D&D 3.5 has balance considerations already in place - but how does this relate to the far more limited medium of the computer game itself? As far as I see from the mechanics of the game, there is no balance consideration for ECL classes at level 20 whatsoever. One feat extra might make a difference, but not when it is matched against one or two statistic upgrades as well as innate spell resistance. In fact, I would go as far as to claim that even Aasimars and Tieflings hold an advantage over a human build in certain classes, and this is where the players toward the end game will gravitate to. Also, the racial spell abilities for both drow and svirfneblins are quite powerfull when used properly - not something to dismiss, either.

You propose two points:

The appropriate way to limit ECL racial power, is to snip away some of the racial bonuses.

The appropriate way to limit ECL racial population, is to require an application to play one.

But, in all honesty, the above is just saying, "We should have fewer ECL characters and limit their power"

I can guarantee you that if people are aware that the ECL races will suffer in power toward the end game, the first will be achieved (population control). The way to do so is, as you noted, to limit their power - our disagreement is only in the means of doing so.

Personally, I feel that taking away racial abilities that are already in place takes away from the concept of the race. The level cap, on the other hand, simply limits character power in at highest levels - something that anybody comitted to their character should accept as part of their development.

As it's been mentioned, the application process is far from simple - level cap seems to make the most sense given the circumstances.

In the end, it becomes a player's choice.


By the way: ECL - effective class level; basically, a computational adjustment toward how a character is to be treated in any issues relating to their level (challenge rating, experience gain, monster types, etc).

It's a built-in balancing element to prevent the more powerfull races from running amok.

[Maankin]

What about that people that didn't choose a "dark" race for their extra treats?
I have a deep gnome illusionist, the major part of the bonusses add little to my character. But I would hate it if I could "only" reach level 17 with it - even if it is in a year or more. I'd rather give up my spell resistance, +2 dex and +2 wis bonus, even the armor bonus, than be denied my higher wizard levels. Deep gnome illusionists and bards would be the big loosers.

[Michael]

What about that people that didn't choose a "dark" race for their extra treats?
I have a deep gnome illusionist, the major part of the bonusses add little to my character. But I would hate it if I could "only" reach level 17 with it - even if it is in a year or more. I'd rather give up my spell resistance, +2 dex and +2 wis bonus, even the armor bonus, than be denied my higher wizard levels. Deep gnome illusionists and bards would be the big loosers.

How would be that different from changing all races to mimic human racial characteristics (+1 feat, +1 skill point, any favored class)?

That would eliminate all the ECL considerations, as well as even out the playing field.

Question is, would it be the same game then?

Yes, some classes will be affected by the limitation to a greater degree than others, but then, it is a player's choice during creation. You can still remake your character using regular gnome race and simply give him darker skin coloration, since it seems your only consideration is cosmetic.

It is a trade-off between power an uniqueness, akin to a half-orc bard or a gnomish barbarian, and, again, in the end the player's choice.

[Greensleeves]

How would be that different from changing all races to mimic human racial characteristics (+1 feat, +1 skill point, any favored class)?

That would eliminate all the ECL considerations, as well as even out the playing field.

Question is, would it be the same game then?

Nope, and It wouldn't be the same with a level cap either. Neither is an adequate solution.

[Michael]

How would be that different from changing all races to mimic human racial characteristics (+1 feat, +1 skill point, any favored class)?

That would eliminate all the ECL considerations, as well as even out the playing field.

Question is, would it be the same game then?

Nope, and It wouldn't be the same with a level cap either. Neither is an adequate solution.

How so? Unless I am completely mistaken, no ECL character has yet reached the ECL level cap, therefore nothing would be detracted from the players' achievements by instituting the level cap.

I honestly do not think there will be a solution that everybody will agree on, but rather at some point the DM team will step in and lay down the rules. That said, I still do not see any reasonable objections to the level cap other than "my character will not be powerfull enough."

Can you please give an example of what difference the level cap will create in relation to the gameplay other than attempting to balance racial abilities?