Alignment and Lochwar

[kikkelipoika]

We don't know if God, Jahwe and Allah exist either. Yet; people believe.

yeah, but that's different because followers of IRL faiths don't have any mysterious divine powers like clerics in dasaria. And we can know for a fact that the dasarian gods do exist in the game world, but there is absolutely nothing that indicates towards the existance of divine (or otherwise supernatural) beings in real life.

Indeed; without followers a -faith- will die. But the God wont.

Which brings us down to why would a god care if no one believes in him? Are they dependant on their worshippers in some way? A common concept in use for the fantasy world gods is that the deities get their powers through mortal prayer or something like that. I don't know what the nature of the dasarian gods is in this regard, but at least they seem to have shown themselves to mortals.

Why don't we all get ingame and discuss it IC?

because my characters don't generally give a rat's dropping about the gods, and the only one who does (not a rat's dropping though, for that would be improper at best) is a sissy boy.

[TheSilverHammer]

There is a difference between acknowledging the existence without caring about them vs actually not believing in gods. It is easy for someone in the D&D world to say, "What have the gods ever done for me?" and blow them off. You still believe in them, you just do not worship them.

With regards to gods and the caring about mortals... that depends on the GMs.

In Ferun, before the times of troubles, the gods just had powers and didn't care that much about mortals. They didn't need worshipers and didn't even collect their souls after death. Then one day, as we all know, AO got kind of pissed off and punted the gods to the mortal plane. After it was all over, AO changed the rules. A god's power was directly proportional to how many worshipers he or she had. No longer were mortals mearly play things for the gods. Now they were precious. Now gods, for the first time, had to curry favor with mortals and cultivate their worshipers.

This has been formalized in the 3e rules. Your divine rank does depend on how many worshipers you have, so as a god, you better take an active role in the mortal world. The worst thing that can happen to a god is to be forgotten.

We have no idea how it works in Dasria, but I think it would be much less interesting if the gods didn't care about mortals.

[Stormknife]

Dasaria is not Faerun, and Deities and Demigods isn't exactly what I'd call a core book.

[coruscadragon]

I have no problem at all in conceiving of a Paladin of Lochwar. Disinformation is a huge part of the churche's agenda, and of course Lochwar doesn't present himself as evil. Though it would take an intense amout of religious fervor to ignore the obvious evils of the church, this is not as far-fetched as you might think. Fact informs fiction: look at the religions of our world. How many atrocities have been commited in the name of religion? How many of those commiting these atrocities thought they were doing the right and holy thing? Religion is quite capable of warping the sensibilities of it's adherants, and it's been used as a tool to do just that for centuries...

[ErictheRed]

Okay it looks like another post is becoming a never-ending argument. I just think it's wrong for someone like TheSilverHammer to come along and say that in a D&D world an atheist is an idiot. It's okay to have that opinion, but let's not tell people how to roleplay their characters (unless they're obviously acting out of alignment, i.e. a Paladin being evil).

I agree that gods DO exist in Dasaria. But think about it: just because gods do exist, does that mean that EVERYONE has first hand experience of them? Perhaps there's a fighter-type out there that doesn't know much about magic, hasn't had much (if any) experience with clerics or the church, etc. He's a practically minded type. Well, he just might assume that if wizards have figured out how to make magic "scientifically," then clerics must have done the same thing. It doesn't matter that he's completely wrong about the origins of a cleric's power, it just matters that he THINKS there's a perfectly natural explanation for it and so doesn't believe in the supernatural.

And I don't buy for one minute the whole "How many arcane resurrection spells are there?" argument. Listen to what I said: a character MIGHT think that some people have tapped into a totally DIFFERENT way of approaching magic--hence, they might have totally DIFFERENT powers. It's kind of like nuclear energy: 100 years ago, people had no idea it even existed, and it certainly is a LOT different than electromagnetism. Perhaps a rationally minded Dasarian would view arcane magic like electromagnetism and divine magic like nuclear fission.

Please stop telling people what types of characters they can roleplay. If someone wants to roll up an atheist, let them. Hell, you might even have some fun philosophical discussions and TONS of roleplay opportunities with them as you try to convert them, burn them at the stake, etc.

God I don't know why we argue about things like this sometimes...let's all just play the game and not get upset that someone MIGHT make a character that goes against OUR ideas of what Dasaria should be.

P.s. Sorry if I sound rude; I've had a long week (first week in a new job).

[kikkelipoika]

God I don't know why we argue about things like this sometimes...

I do. It's because people constantly misread / misunderstad eachothers posts. Like I believe you did when you got all sensitive about the comment that atheists are idiots. Yeah, that's right, they're most likely idiots in a fantasy world. Their players are not though, just the characters. There is so much evidence about the gods' powers that you'd really have to be an idiot / ignorant not to believe in them. As to the nature of the gods, what difference does it make from the mortal point of view whether they are level 100 wizards or something else? It's the power that makes them gods, not their origin, nor the origin of their power.

I don't believe anyone here has anything against people making atheist characters.

Well, he just might assume that if wizards have figured out how to make magic "scientifically," then clerics must have done the same thing.

Or maybe the other way around, he might think that because clerics get their powers from divine beings, wizards do aswell.

Anyway, i think arguments like this are refreshing, and i really can see no reason why some people feel so uneasy about them. C'mon, it's just a discussion, nothing more, nothing less. Nothing is decided here.

Damn this text must sound like a rant .

[ErictheRed]

Or maybe the other way around, he might think that because clerics get their powers from divine beings, wizards do aswell.

That's a good point, and you've given me an interesting idea for a character (that I'll probably never implement): a wizard who has his own "religion," i.e. he thinks his arcane powers are the manifestation of a divine being and so worships this abstract being. It would be a lot of fun roleplaying such a character, and trying to convert others, etc. But if someone were to say that this type of character was "stupid," or an "idiot," I'd get upset.

Basically my above posts were arguing with TheSilverHammer, who basically said (correct me if I misinterpreted him) that it's IMPOSSIBLE for their to be an atheist in a D&D world. He even implied that it was somehow against the rules for the gods to NOT actively go around "proving" their existence in order to gain more followers. He also said this:

It should be clear to anyone living in the D&D world that god's play by different rules. They are not mearly really powerful mortals. A 100th level wizard can't do things a level 10 cleric can do, let alone even the most minor of deities.

In the D&D world, an atheist is an idiot.

It sounded to me like he wasn't just saying that an atheist would be an idiot, but that he was trying to prove that any person living in a D&D world would HAVE to believe in the gods. I just completely disagree, and wanted to clarify myself.

It isn't the argument that bothers me, rather the idea of other people telling people what to do with their characters. Anyway I'm over it now (for real this time) .

[DM Bionic]

Nobody can tell someone else how to play their character unless said nobody is a DM. And even then, the DM must understand that there are as many character concepts as there are people and that he can't just shoot an idea down because he's inable to comprehend it or explain it. I am sorry that things were felt that way because the last thing we want to achieve in Dasaria is eradication of the option for people to be creative in who they are playing.

[kikkelipoika]

That's a good point, and you've given me an interesting idea for a character

Good to see that something creative came out of my rant for once