Roleplay and You

[Sorc]

I do agree with Rob..
do roleplay more with others - you wil have more RP from others..

Also about old players and things that Eve and Explorer say... I know some of very old guys got used one to other... but i never seen most of very old willing to party/rp with new guys... RP is part of game, but it is social interaction, and if you have characters that require party to play... go with anyone, meet and wellcome newcomers.. Old guys, most of them tend to stick one with other... but it is wrong.. It make uninviting feel, old vs new atmosphere...
I do RP much actually but i do interact socially (and occ in party) with new players which visit server.. I always aproach them with RP, and hten building both RP characters interaction, and my social connection with new player..

[Kamen]

As a new player myself, I don't perceive an old vs new atmosphere. Some of the veteran players only have specific times they meet and play a specific character for a particular long-running plot. Most of them will party with new players, given that their characters actually get along, the situation permits it, and the encounter is properly RP'ed.

That being said, I think it's difficult for new players to be thrust into long-running plot-lines. I think the current werewolf plot is an excellent example of a new plot that is catching the interest of newer players and veterans alike. I've personally gotten involved in some of the older plots, but still watching and learning mostly. You don't have to have an epic character to be involved in an epic adventure.

[The Explorer]

Explorer, I think that's what Eumenides was pointing out. Roleplayers log on, don't see any other roleplayers on, then log off, leaving the server to have... no roleplayers on.

I am aware of that mate and your correct about the catch 22 though I what I meant was I used to do loot runs to wait for Rpers I'd login at first because:

1- looking for some Rp/Rp+adventure, faction session, to check out new content with a party.
2- I sometimes used to login because I was stressed and beating the **** out of Laugwart or hitting the Arena would bring some stress releif - No need anymore as got another game which always has 32 - 64 players per server and shooting PC's in the head with my sniper rifle works so well it helped me quit smoking this time round (Since 1st September ).
3- Occassionally some RPied PvP/build testing PvP with a friend.
4- because British TV/sky TV was/is crap until decent internet TV shows increased.

1. Automated RP-xp
This is a lovely feature, it will give you chunks of 50xp every once in a while. The chance is increased if you type things, or are around other PCs. Spending two hours around the campfire might get you a few hundred xp this way ( hardly ever more than 200-300 per hour). That is not much, but it gives you the chance to progress in levels even if you hardly go out adventuring. Of course a sytem like this -might- be abused by someone going afk and still getting xp, but there's always the chance to make that player lose xp/levels/gear/ the right to play (aka ban).

5. Same as above in regard to ignoring NPCs
NPCs are are as much part of the story as PCs are. If you PvP someone right in front of the guards, that is just bad style (or a stupid PC). It happened to me and the worst of all: The guy that killed me even stayed around continuing his bullying, while all the guards stood there idly watching us. This truely ruined the athmosphere for me and I logged shortly after. This could both be punished OOC (docking levels/xp) or IC ( suddenly a fully buffed fleetsman Codzilla shows up and hunts down the attacker). Both would make think people twice about ignoring NPCs in the future.

I totally agree/support those two ideas mate although should be some idle/AFK option for when one needs it. As to your other sugestions IMO; number 2 would only fit if a mage is Scrying that has already met or RPly knows about the PC they are Scrying for, Number 3 you can't be serious so I'll take it as jest, Number 4 technically I'd agree only in local Chat but do remember some of us can make mistakes accidentally typing in Local from Party chaty in OOC after responding to tells or because misclick and number 6 I don't agree with because as Eve said just because it's on your character sheet they don't have to be that way e.g. My Char Bloody Davy Laird is a huge ugly horc with only a little intelligents but I play him as the uglyest human pirate in Varana.

[stoned-raider]

The scrying/player finder tool would be a strict OOC-tool. No mage or scrying needed, your PC has no clue, but it offers you as a player the possibility to "accidently" run into other PCs. Abusable? Sure. A great tool nevertheless? Definitely!

And yes, I am serious about point 3 as well. I'm fully aware though that most here will disagree, indicated by the *runs and hides" emote.

[Twist of Cain]

Dasaria does not strictly enforce in-character interactions. The idea, in my opinion, should not be to discourage OOCness, but to encourage RP.

Honestly, if I had logged on and seen a "Klingon" on Dasaria, chances are pretty good I would have immediately logged off again and forever removed it from my list of potential serious role-play servers. Sure, you don't "need" to enforce anything. But I know every single one of my old time roleplaying friends would have chuckled at seeing a Klingon, then done the same as me.

Sometimes discipline must be imposed if you want a higher level of quality. I've never seen a server that "just lets things happen" fill up with a group of high quality, dedicated roleplayers by completely random chance. In fact, the most draconian, harsh server was the one I have seen filled to the brim with the most brilliant roleplayers and the most captivating stories. I'm not saying it's necessary to be draconian. I hate enforcing rules, myself. But I feel confident saying from my experience that if you don't, you're not going to get the best results.

In any case, I've been trying to consider the more positive things that I know some other successful roleplay servers do, and condense it all into a formula, as simple as possible. If we can break it down to a system, we might have more insight. Comments welcome so long as you can handle my opinionated responses. Bear in mind that I am not saying Dasaria lacks all or even any of these things. I'm just trying to describe a complete system of which things support a high quality RP server.


1. Plenty of DM-lovin'. All of them had enough DMs that there was almost always at least one on-line or available in IRC. I think this is probably the most important prerequisite, to be honest. Without a lot of DMs to prune as well as nurture on Dasaria, there's not too much reason for roleplayers to come there as opposed to any other blank canvas of a server that has roleplayers as well.
Active DMs that care about roleplay must absolutely be the "base" for anything else.

2. Provide a quality "canvas" for roleplayers to populate. The "canvas" means an inclusive system of opposed factions to try and draw everyone into the storyline. This also means being the "bad cop" unfortunately: keeping the canvas clean by enforcing IC/OOC rules, rules of the setting, roleplaying your character fairly, no metagaming, etc. Reduce the things that reduce immersion and suspension of disbelief. I'm looking at you, Klingons.
Once you have the DMs, this is the second most basic component; a good setting free of OOC distraction.

3. Establish a system of tangible rewards for Roleplayers. If you can't reward RPers in ways that matter, and by that I mean at least equal or surpassing what a powergamer could achieve, the system needs to be looked at. So long as powergaming alone yields better results, you are not encouraging Roleplaying enough. It's tough to achieve this without bloating the loot pool, of course. Meaningful political positions for charisma/persuade roleplayers, powerful charged items (that get used up) and application-based prestige classes are all methods to do this. If you have a "soft cap" system in which quest/farm XP dries up before a "hard cap" (20) is hit, then DM-granted XP is also a powerful reward for much longer, if not forever.
Positive reinforcement is best, but first we have to decide what we can give roleplayers that will truly matter.

4. Give Roleplayers tools to do their thing. An IC announcement system to get together, a subdual tool to have casual PvP conflict more frequently without respawn/death, Scribe PCs to write actual notes in-game, shackle/shackle-key items to restrain subdued players, etc.
Now that we know what we can give them, we need to give them some tools to paint on the canvas with. Some scripted tools are useful even when DMs are absent.

5. Support and reward Roleplayers. Starting with people who simply remain IC as much as possible and just RP their character well, up to those people who are shining gems of involvement and get other people to flock to their groups. (I've already seen several examples of the latter sort on Dasaria, and I think the server has even more potential than what is currently being tapped.) Give them things that matter: attention and support, spiced-up quests, but also prestigious, meaningful rewards. (Not without a lot of danger involved, of course.)
DM support is a great tool to let Roleplayers paint the canvas, and rewarding them is the DM's contribution to the fuel that drives their motivations.



Attracting and keeping new roleplayers is also key. The difference between level 1 and 20 is huge, much more so than for instance the difference between 2 and 8 or 9. This means that most of the established players won't quest with new players for quite a long time, but the issue is that they often have the most to offer in terms of role-play. The new player, however, has little to offer the high level. I feel this is a point worth discussing - how to better involve new players. On the low level servers I've played a lot, it doesn't take much to get to a level where you might already be questing with the "oldbies." Sometimes they had things to offer like player votes, or assistance in intrigue plots, such as being bought as false witnesses in player-run criminal trials. (Nothing like real, player-driven capital punishment to pack a courtroom.) Does the time lag between 1 and 20 mean a potential loss of new blood? What do you guys think? Would the server be better off if new players and max level players' levels were closer together?

[Peregrinus]

FYI to all the new players, the Fleet faction have items that allow them to arrest people. They tag someone and that person is declared to be "under pursuit" if that person is then PvPed and they respawn, they respawn in a locked jail cell that they need to be released from.

Again, I don't know why people want perma-death on PCs for PvP and other thing, but let me be clear, if that goes in, I'm likely leaving, because I already have had to deal with griefers and others targeting me and I don't want to have to deal with the threat of perma-death. Perma-death only encourages people to play assholes, aiding those weaker than you only leaves you open to die, permanently, and swings RP further in favor of people playing villains than being able to play proper heroes, as the people who will get and hold power will be the people who rigorously attack and cut down anyone who gets near their power level. It also further encourages power building to minimize risk, as otherwise you risk losing weeks and months of character building and development. Unless you decide to enforce strict RP builds, the server will become dominated further by CoDzillas and HiPS oriented builds, as those offer the most durability and a properly built stealth character is effectively undetectable by ANY build and can nickle and dime most other builds to death.

Also, I was actually playing on Das1 when the Klingon incident occurred, and it was roundly criticized and effectively laughed off the server. I saw the character logged in maybe once in all my time playing, and it disappeared very quickly. Yes, it made it's mark as an amusing story we old timers tell, but it's always in the context of "dumb character ideas" and "things you should not do," not, as Lond is trying to spin it, an example of how open to ideas Dasaria is.

The thread I notice through all of this is that it puts more work on the DMs. They are already stretched thin, and should we be asking them to give up more of their time? I'm with Rob on this, we shouldn't be asking more of them, we should be asking more of ourselves.

[Corona Starfire]

I agree that permadeath in PvP is a bad idea.

[Kamen]

Hehe, I prefer Klingons to perma-death any day.

[Evelond Formos]

Also, I was actually playing on Das1 when the Klingon incident occurred, and it was roundly criticized and effectively laughed off the server. I saw the character logged in maybe once in all my time playing, and it disappeared very quickly. Yes, it made it's mark as an amusing story we old timers tell, but it's always in the context of "dumb character ideas" and "things you should not do," not, as Lond is trying to spin it, an example of how open to ideas Dasaria is.

A little less pretentiousness would be nice. I am not "spinning" anything.

And my point was exactly in line with what you said: quality is self-regulating. My point, if you actually read my post, was that quality RP will arise anyway, and low-to-no quality RP will be ignored, or ridiculed, by the community. Please reread the section of my post in which I mentioned the Klingon.

Dasaria has always been lax regarding character concepts. Hell, I believe there was a Klingon in Dasaria 1. I'm not saying that these concepts, when given freedom, are never lame. Very often, they are. However, quality is evident to those of quality. This kind of stuff does not need to be enforced because there already exists a safeguard against ridiculousness: storyline support. Neither DMs nor players will support a storyline they find absolutely ridiculous. They will, however, know and support quality RP when they see it.

I agree that we should be doing more to increase RP if that is the change we want to see. However, suggestions were asked for in the original post. As such, suggestions have been given.

Personally, though, I have seen a great amount of RP these past few days without any change in policy on the DMs' parts.

[Wired]

*Canite Attack*

[Twist of Cain]

The thread I notice through all of this is that it puts more work on the DMs. They are already stretched thin, and should we be asking them to give up more of their time? I'm with Rob on this, we shouldn't be asking more of them, we should be asking more of ourselves.

Well, this is a thread a DM started to ask for suggestions, you know. They're not under any obligation to implement any one of them, as they already stated. They're asking for ideas.

Obviously a "perm death" option would be frightening, so it's no doubt getting discussed out of proportion to it's merits. I'll finish my discussion on it by stating this.

Notice the fugue-death system as a general rule still allowed for cleric rezzes on PvP deaths, so the only persons at big risk are the ones who can't find a single cleric who doesn't think they're an "asshole." Guess who loses? Right, the "assholes." A "nuclear option," much like the cold war, actually reduced the worst of conflict most of the time instead of escalating it. Yeah, occasionally people never get rezzed. Sometimes DMs rule a death to be crucial enough to the story that they reward the RPer with a cool ending. Most of the time the player's next incarnation, as a result of them being a good sport and good RPer, receives extra attention or approval for special races/PrCs and so on.

The fugue-death system also normally came bundled with a "subdual" mode in which by default PvP didn't result in death at all, just a beat-down. Generally, I found it made things exciting, realistic and even encouraged friendly conflict (as default is non-death) at the same time. Of course, if Dasaria suffers from a number of high level griefers, it has bigger issues to deal with before it's roleplayers would be ready for this sort of responsibility. From what you say, Peregrinus, it sounds a little like people at high levels here don't play well with each other, for one.

Can it improve stories on a server? I have no doubt of it, if it's accompanied by the right changes, and the roleplaying community on the server is mature. But perhaps Dasaria isn't the right place for it just right now, I'm beginning to think the other changes need to come first.

As far as the issues with powerbuilds and HiPS in reaction to the possibility of perm death, those are valid concerns, but they can be covered by introducing a number of different solutions. Completely possible as I can tell you from experience, but would make certain changes necessary and I don't think it would be productive to go over all that, as well, at this point.

PS: GOGO CANITE ATTACK!

[Mensha Khaine]

I'm in two minds about perma-death, as right now just about everyone talks themselves up and no one really fears being beaten to a pulp. Maybe we would see a more acurate picture of characters should perma death be put into place. The flip side is that it does leave a big hole for abuse.

Maybe instead of perma death, you get sent to the "after life" where your diety gets to judge you, should you be worthy you get returned, if not, your stuck there until the next server rest or someone rezzes your corpse. Just shooting out ideas.

[Peregrinus]

People at high level do play well together, actually. The problem comes from the random griefers who slip in, power level, and then declare a vendetta against the visible people who they see as "top dog" because of our more public positions. After all, if you're trying to become the local "big bad evil guy" you're gonna target the names everyone recognizes to take out, it simply makes sense, and then go bragging about it. This has happened multiple times on Dasaria, because we're a more open community than many of the "hard-core" RP servers. Many of the suggestions here seem to want to take Dasaria in a more "hard core" RP direction, and I've looked at the rules for a few of those servers and I sat there and simply shook my head at how restrictive some of them are. Sure, maybe they have great RP, but I think most players would rather have the freedom to create their characters and act as they see fit. Yes, I believe they should RP their character sheet, but I don't want to see the DMs enforcing that. Yes, I believe that taking 1 level of Shadowdancer is pure twinkage and HATE that so many people do it, but I don't want to see it banned or make it so people have to take X number of levels in their classes.

At the end of the day, my belief is that Dasaria is for having fun. Rules are there to manage the community, and prevent other people from ruining the fun of others, but once they start forcing players to behave in certain ways or have to build their characters in certain ways, I think they've gone overboard. Yes, I take a very libertarian view on rules, my core philosophy on any discussion is to provide the greatest fun for the greatest number. Some people might like it more hardcore, that's good, but I expect more people prefer fast and loose with death and a more forgiving PvP system that let them get back up right quick and get back to what they were doing.

Some of your ideas are great, don't get me wrong, but I know that perma-death would turn off a great many of the long time players here, and I know that the possibility of it has turned me off from looking at other NWN2 PWCs.

Harsher death penalties for PvP might be appropriate though, so long as people don't start griefing, which is often a problem with a more open world like Dasaria.

[Twist of Cain]

Hm, well some of the aspects of those death systems are less scary, but I felt also contributed a lot and could work independently:

1. The "subdual mode" damage as default was great. You could roleplay a boxing match, friendly duel, etc, without worrying about losing gold and xp over it. I'd like to see a player widget that does that on Dasaria. Basically, when you log on, by default you can't take other players below -10hp. You have to use the tool to set "full damage" on. For instance, tonight Mach got turned into a werewolf, and if I could have been on subdual mode I would have immediately let loose on all the players around, which would simply (to me) have made a lot more sense than a werewolf just sitting there not attacking the people.

2. The "fugue plane" approach. This can work even without any perm death option. Naturally a cleric rez should always bring someone back immediately, but for pvp death, it is nice to have at least a short timer during which the character can't simply pop back into the game-world, which is awfully immersion-destroying when it happens. A half hour timer or so should suffice, and you might even put some interesting distractions on the "fugue" plane itself. Games of chance with the Grim Reaper, perhaps? Another interesting approach might be to make the pvp respawn timer short at first, then increase it each time someone is pvped within the same reset.

[Mensha Khaine]

Games of chance with the Grim Reaper, perhaps?

woh Bill and Ted flash back

Grim Reaper: A hit. You have sank my battleship!
Dead Bill, Dead Ted: Excellent! Yeah!
Dead Ted: I totally knew he put it in the J's, dude!
Dead Bill: Good thinking, Ted.
Grim Reaper: You must play me again.
Dead Bill: WHAT?
Grim Reaper: Um, best two out of three.
Dead Ted: No way!
Grim Reaper: Yes way.