Roleplay and You

[Cythis]

However just because you are LG, doesn't mean you are smart!

[DM Eumenides]

Remember, saying "Serial killers and monsters of limited intelligence are typically Chaotic Evil" is much different than saying "Chaotic Evil characters are typically serial killers and monsters of limited intelligence."

[LordAers]

on a server i played on in nwn1, when a char died in pvp, everything that was stolen dropped to the ground.
could the same be applied to disarmed weapons?

[Mon-da-oth]

Stolen items do drop (or did) in a bag that can only be picked up by the victor or the loser.

[LordAers]

ah, i see. ive never been involved in, or witnessed a pvp action as a result of a pick pocket. i think that if it is that way, its a good thing

[Twist of Cain]

Stolen items do drop (or did) in a bag that can only be picked up by the victor or the loser.

I think what he is saying is that picking up/aquiring a weapon as a result of disarming should flag it as stolen. However, I don't agree that simply dropping a weapon after a disarm should flag it stolen, as the original owner may be allowed/lucky enough to be able to pick it up again. I haven't actually used disarm in NWN2, but scriptwise this sounds like a pain to implement well. Perhaps flagging it as stolen with a non-saving tag if a disarm is successful would be possible. I'm not sure it's worth the trouble, though.

Well, I would hope that the reaction to a pick-pocket wouldn't be instant PvP.

On the one hand, it's important to be courteous to your fellow roleplayers. On the other hand, we're all playing characters that kill hundreds of humans, halflings, etc, because they are allegedly criminals or gang members. While imho it's acceptable, even expected, to bend things a little bit in consideration for other players, if a character is violent by nature, it would seem out of character to see him respond meekly to a pickpocket.

I just don't think that if the burglar runs out of a grocery store stealing a bottle of syrup, that the police will charge at him, run him over, and start shooting him in the face.

It depends on the character of the gunman in question, I think. Also keep in mind that a victim is not a policeman. As a note, many medieval (and much later) governments had harsh punishments for stealing, up to and including death. Recent enough that the USA also had death penalties for some theft and enforced this. But I don't think this issue has to do with government at all, it's more about roleplaying a character consistently - and also having consideration for the other player. (Who, to be fair, did not give your possible desire to keep all your items any consideration.)

Every encounter begets a winner and a loser, and the loser is out. If anything happens after that, other than their accepting honorable defeat and moving on with their day, somebody's probably done done a disservice to someone.

Hehe, yes. And if you have a rowdy character, just laugh it off, tell the other guy he has a good right hook and offer to buy him an ale.

[Atharin]

Okay, just my 2 cents.

It seems that this discussion has evolved from "Why don't people roleplay?" to "How can we liven things up". Let me address the original question:

People don't roleplay because they don't want to. It's as simple as that. You don't need a guide to tell people how to roleplay; this problem is not rooted in ignorance. It only takes imagination to roleplay, however "badly" -- and every human being has an imagination and is capable of using it.

The problem is that Dasaria does not discourage the hackslashinglolroflomg'ing type of player and doesn't encourage the roleplayer. The introduction of two elements that are basic in just about every roleplay server, but not Das -- Docking XP for excessive OOC behavior/talk, and awarding XP for IC behavior and roleplay (commonly known as the XP fairy) -- could be a first step towards re-establishing a roleplaying environment.

I doubt that will happen, as Dasaria's policy has always been a "we welcome all type of players; roleplay is not mandatory" kind of deal - which is well and good for some, but unfortunately is also the first thing that will cause most roleplayers who are looking for a server to skip it during their search. Perhaps it is time to reconsider some archaic policies that were set in a different era and a different game, with different players and a much different situation?

So, yes: I'm advocating turning Dasaria into a "heavy" (I never liked this term) roleplay server, where being IC is mandatory. It really is an all-or-none deal in the NWN PW reality. I know that I don't play here anymore simply because of this: Why should I spend 40 minutes in Dasaria looking for someone who is willing to interact ICly with me, when I can jump into any random roleplay server where roleplaying is taken for granted?

Will the player count decrease? Probably. But a high number on the gamespy list doesn't really excite me when I know that half of the people online are WoW rejects.

As far as political positions and faction conflicts (and other situations that come with a burden of player responsibility) to liven roleplay up goes, this has been asked for before on numerous occasions by different interested players, and unfortunately deprecated more often than not. :/
I hope that changes too, so I'll just echo the aforementioned desires to see such things.

[Twist of Cain]

Discourage the hackslashinglolroflomg'ing type of player.

Encourage the roleplayer.

Those two things are what it really boils down to, and I would go a step further: if you want it to matter, you have to do it in ways that matter.

Yes, make RPers take risks for their rewards, but if they could have gained more by making a powerbuild and going out to kill orcs, then you're not encouraging RP more than powergaming rewards itself. Helping a roleplayer get slowly to level 20? He could get there fast with a powerbuild and no time out to RP. And what will you give him at level 20 on Dasaria that a powergamer can't get for himself, and probably faster? That is the dilemna behind some of my previous suggestions (nearly all from successful, rp-'heavy' servers) that might have seemed 'tough.'

[LordAers]

I doubt that will happen, as Dasaria's policy has always been a "we welcome all type of players; roleplay is not mandatory" kind of dea...

Absolutely this is a factor. And personally speaking, I like the policy. I enjoy RP very much, and I do it a lot. But I have friends on this server, and sometimes it is very nice to sit around and shoot the breeze, or RP in a very light and silly way. or say 'hey, lets go after the lich' and just do it because its fun, rather than RP the whole way there. Either way is fine, but sometimes people may not feel like RPing, and want to just hang with friends. I don't see an issue with that as long as it doesn't negatively affect another players RP experience.

[Twist of Cain]

Either way is fine, but sometimes people may not feel like RPing

I can understand that, although I think what's being pointed out is the conflict between that policy and it's effects and the desire to see more roleplay going on in general on Das2.

Contrast something like,

Play here, we want more roleplay and have some great stories! We have a relaxed atmosphere, and some people here already roleplay, but you don't have to. We don't "discriminate."

With something like,

Play here, everyone around you is in character/RPing all the time by requirement. We make sure RPers aren't outdone by powergamers via meaningful rewards and restrictions. We're a tough server, but RP above all else is our top priority!

Wouldn't you think that will make a difference between attracting mostly occasional RPers and powergamers, and attracting serious, constant RPers?

Similar to above, speaking of effects... when a roleplayer gets on and joins a party which does nothing but ride the quest train and has hardly any IC interaction whatsoever, they may very well get the impression "this server is not for roleplayers," get bored and get off at the next stop.

Now, I should point out, I don't think the stick should ever come before the carrot, but both rewards and rules have a place.

[Peregrinus]

No, I don't find the second definition more appealing, and I'm as hard core RPer as you'll find. The reason why is simple, because the second view strikes me as elitist and close-minded. Part of this is my mindset: I play games to have fun. The first definition (the current and historic Das attitude) strikes me more as people getting together to have fun. The second strikes me as everyone considers things "serious business" and will lead to grief for people who don't toe the line. Not fun in my mind. I've looked over other NWN2 RP servers time and again, and the stricter the rules, the less I want to play there because they look to enforce what their definition of Role-playing and DnD is on players. DnD is about communal storytelling, and the more you have rules saying how people should act, the more you restrict people's ability to create. The DMs don't control the story, we all do, though the DMs are directors.

This entire push to "punish" people for not role-playing is anathema to everything Dasaria has ever been. If you want to bring up role-playing, find ways to reward it, but there's always been a part of Dasaria that's been about level-grinding and earning your levels through the old fashioned method of lots and lots of killing things. Frankly, I despise the attitude that you need a mechanical benefit to reward good RP, good RP is it's own reward and is simply part of how some people play the game.

Also, I have no clue where this entire attitude of "powergamers get mroe power than roleplayers in Das" comes from. If you're speaking mechanically, then yes, that will be true no matter what you do. The person who twinks their built for max AC will always be nigh-unhittable. The person who builds for maximum damage output will always be able to do damage faster. The person who builds for optimum stealth will never be seen. That's the simple mechanical nature of the game. However, in Dasaria the powergamers who don't role-play come and go, they never put down roots here and they never gain any real notoriety on the server. Those of us who stick around and make names for ourselves in the history of the server, we're all RPers, hard core ones who've earned our stripes through months if not years of in game plots and turmoil. Yes, I'd like to see the return of special items for finishing ongoing plots and RP-customized items (we had them in Das1, they stopped doing it in Das2, though occasionally things will find their way in).

Finally, I think there's a disconnect as to what role-playing is. I've spoken with another long standing player on the server. One who started as a powergamer but ended up being seduced by role-play and has since become a staple of the server for many folks. He expressed to me that it seems that the idea most have of "role-playing" is standing around talking. Newsflash: that's not the only kind of RP. I personally much prefer the RP that comes from going out and doing thing, the RP that originates from running dungeons and the banter of traveling friends. Standing around is flat out boring to me. And don't give me the "well, we cleared it out one, it would be OOC to have to go in again." Very few zones in Dasaria cannot be legitimately reentered for RP reasons. Yes, while doing the quests again might be a little OOC (and you know what, that's fine with me) there's nowhere in the game that the PCs could legitimately claim to have ever completely dealt with and cleaned out for good. You can also encourage immersion by coming up with alternative plots that fit the same overall quest, hell, I know at least one quest where it could be repeating itself over and over if you just rename two NPCs due to the nature of the quest (The Changling Quest in Ravenwatch for the curious). If you need mechanical or DM aid to immerse yourself in Dasaria, then, frankly, that's your failure as a player, not of the server. I've looked at many other NWN2 servers, and very few can claim to have as rich and deep history and lore as Dasaria does, especially when you take into account it's an original venue. The only servers that even have a world marginally as wide are based on the Forgotten Realms, and you simply cannot compare an original venue to a communal publisher-supported setting that has existed longer than many players have been alive.

I agree that it would be nice to see the return of DM-reward items for good, long RPed stories. I wouldn't mind a mechanic that rewards RP, but I can't see a way which it wouldn't be abused. I cannot for the life of me get behind the idea of DM enforced RP. There are ways to enforce it as a player, and I've used them before. At the same time, I want Dasaria to be as open as it was, to reach out to the powergamers and the casual folks who don't understand the concept of heavy RP, or think RP means only "pretending to have sex with the characters." When folks talk of enforced heavy RP and creating mechanical restrictions on builds that don't fit with core DnD rules, I start getting antsy, and it strikes me as elitist. I know elitism turns me off on many "heavy RP" servers, and I can't imagine I'm the only one.

[Twist of Cain]

Also, I have no clue where this entire attitude of "powergamers get mroe power than roleplayers in Das" comes from. If you're speaking mechanically, then yes

Well, obviously.

The person who twinks their built for max AC will always be nigh-unhittable. The person who builds for maximum damage output will always be able to do damage faster. The person who builds for optimum stealth will never be seen. That's the simple mechanical nature of the game.

It is possible, through use of rewards, restrictions and approval systems, to make it so the people with the most rewarded and powerful characters are the ones who have also earned it by enriching the server by their roleplay. It's creating effective reward through exclusivity, and it makes good roleplaying the most rewarding activity on a server. This in turn attracts good roleplayers more than anything else, but also fails to appeal to powergamers.

I agree that it would be nice to see the return of DM-reward items for good, long RPed stories. I wouldn't mind a mechanic that rewards RP, but I can't see a way which it wouldn't be abused.

You are right, a script mechanic is weak and would be abused. It has to be intelligently done, few and valuable rewards as opposed to slow trickles of nothing or marginally good items. Quality over quantity. Risk should be a requirement.

Frankly, I despise the attitude that you need a mechanical benefit to reward good RP, good RP is it's own reward and is simply part of how some people play the game.

My opinion is that the attitude, "good RPers don't deserve any more beyond what they get for themselves" is more of a problem, and selfish to boot. Giving RPers meaningful, mechanical rewards otherwise unattainable is good for the server, because it motivates people to roleplay here, and everyone can enjoy the stories that develop. Richly rewarding the time spent for giving the entire server a good story should be a given.

This entire push to "punish" people for not role-playing is anathema to everything Dasaria has ever been. If you want to bring up role-playing, find ways to reward it, but there's always been a part of Dasaria that's been about level-grinding and earning your levels through the old fashioned method of lots and lots of killing things.

This thread has been about a desire for change since the first post. I do agree that rewards should be focused on much more than punishment. Of course, the rewards will either be ineffective by being irrelevant, or effective and powergamers will whine that it's something they can' get on their stat sheet at will. Which is the whole point, of course. If everyone has it, it's not a reward. Restriction and reward are two sides of the same coin.

I'm as hard core RPer as you'll find.

Standing around is flat out boring to me.

I'm sure you're a good roleplayer. I prefer roleplay with danger to social roleplay, myself. No offense, however, saying you're a "hard core" roleplayer, but you can't stand to sit around doing nothing other than roleplay, seems a bit of a contradiction to me.

[Gobbylin]

The person who twinks their built for max AC will always be nigh-unhittable. The person who builds for maximum damage output will always be able to do damage faster. The person who builds for optimum stealth will never be seen. That's the simple mechanical nature of the game.

It is possible, through use of rewards, restrictions and approval systems, to make it so the people with the most rewarded and powerful characters are the ones who have also earned it by enriching the server by their roleplay. It's creating effective reward through exclusivity, and it makes good roleplaying the most rewarding activity on a server. This in turn attracts good roleplayers more than anything else, and in turn also fails to appeal to powergamers.

I dont see why this has turned into a powergamers vs roleplayers debate. One can be a powergamer and a roleplayer, and there are plenty of those on Dasaria. One of the main perks of Dasaria is not being forced into having to RP at all times. If you want to just hook up with a friend for a quest run, or you are that little bit of XP off of the next level you dont need to RP. I personally find alot of fun out of creating the best character on sheet as I can. That doesnt mean I dont roleplay; the fact that this seems to be the opinion is rather sad.

By reading the above paragraph the only thing I can see is that there is a wish for forcing others to roleplay and punishing those that do not wish to be extreme roleplayers. Again as stated before in this thread, this goes against what Dasaria is.

Frankly, I despise the attitude that you need a mechanical benefit to reward good RP, good RP is it's own reward and is simply part of how some people play the game.

My opinion is that the attitude, "good RPers don't deserve any more beyond what they get for themselves" is more of a problem, and selfish to boot. Giving RPers meaningful, mechanical rewards otherwise unattainable is good for the server, because it motivates people to roleplay here, and everyone can enjoy the stories that develop. Richly rewarding the time spent for giving the entire server a good story should be a given.

I dont quite understand what you are saying here. From what I can get from this paragraph is it is selfish to consider the RP as your own reward rather then getting a unique item from the DM for your RP?

I dont know about you...but I would think it would be selfish to assume you will get a item for RP as a reward.

This entire push to "punish" people for not role-playing is anathema to everything Dasaria has ever been. If you want to bring up role-playing, find ways to reward it, but there's always been a part of Dasaria that's been about level-grinding and earning your levels through the old fashioned method of lots and lots of killing things.

This thread has been about a desire for change since the first post. I do agree that rewards should be focused on much more than punishment. Of course, the rewards will either be ineffective by being irrelevant, or effective and powergamers will whine that it's something they can' get on their stat sheet at will. Which is the whole point, of course. If everyone has it, it's not a reward. Restriction and reward are two sides of the same coin.

If powergamers want a RP reward they will RP for it. As powergamers it could be assumed that they could obtain the powerful equipment on the server as it is through grinding. If someone is rewarded for RPing I dont see why a powergamer would complain. Simply put if they want the RP reward, RP.

I'm as hard core RPer as you'll find.

Standing around is flat out boring to me.

I'm sure you're a good roleplayer. I prefer roleplay with danger to social roleplay, myself. No offense, however, saying you're a "hard core" roleplayer, but you can't stand to sit around doing nothing other than roleplay, seems a bit of a contradiction to me.

There are different ways to RP. Some people prefer some over others.

[Peregrinus]

The person who twinks their built for max AC will always be nigh-unhittable. The person who builds for maximum damage output will always be able to do damage faster. The person who builds for optimum stealth will never be seen. That's the simple mechanical nature of the game.

It is possible, through use of rewards, restrictions and approval systems, to make it so the people with the most rewarded and powerful characters are the ones who have also earned it by enriching the server by their roleplay. It's creating effective reward through exclusivity, and it makes good roleplaying the most rewarding activity on a server. This in turn attracts good roleplayers more than anything else, and in turn also fails to appeal to powergamers.

This is exactly the type of system that turns me off on most of the "hardcore" RP servers. I would rather have to deal with the occasional powergamer than have to deal with potential favoritism and limits on how a person can build their character. While I love the DMs here, I wouldn't put favoritism past anyone, and I don't trust authority enough to believe that things wouldn't be abused. By giving players more freedom to decide their builds without restriction, while it may encourage powergaming, it also sends a message that we're more about having fun than anything else. Which is as it should be in my opinion.

Also, why should RPers be mechanically more powerful than powergamers? That simply strikes me as elitism and an "us vs them" mentality. Powergamers are not an enemy that needs to be displaced. They are people, like you or I, who are playing to have fun. Simply because they play differently than you or I is that reason to limit the fun they can have? They are not harming anyone with their playstyle or the fact they have the highest AC or the highest Hide/Ms, let them have their fun, they're not complaining about you RPing and saying you shouldn't, why should you be against them getting together, running the dungeons, getting good loot and making powerful characters? And has been pointed out, powergamers are not the ones who leave their mark on the server history, they will fall by the wayside forgotten, while it is the RPers who are remembered and their stories live on. The IC history of Dasaria is full of player characters, I'd even go so far as to say close to 75% of the server's history is based off of player RP.

I'd name names and list events here, but I've been working on that stuff for years over on the wiki and have no desire to list all that stuff again.

I'm as hard core RPer as you'll find.

Standing around is flat out boring to me.

I'm sure you're a good roleplayer. I prefer roleplay with danger to social roleplay, myself. No offense, however, saying you're a "hard core" roleplayer, but you can't stand to sit around doing nothing other than roleplay, seems a bit of a contradiction to me.

Then you are to narrow minded in your definition of RP. You're also speaking in broad generalizations that I wasn't. I will stand around and talk with people IC all the time, but my main character is a character who RPed into being a Knight who's sworn directly to the Crown Prince of the Empire of Varana. When I'm in game, I'm in character. Unless something logistical needs to be taken care of OOC, I deal with things IC. You've never encountered me, so I would suggest making claims as to what type of RPer I am based on my briefly stated likes and dislikes is inadvisable. It also smacks of a feable attempt at an Ad Hominem "argument." Fair warning, I do not take well to that track, and so I suggest you avoid it.

[LordAers]

Contrast something like,

Play here, we want more roleplay and have some great stories! We have a relaxed atmosphere, and some people here already roleplay, but you don't have to. We don't "discriminate."

With something like,

Play here, everyone around you is in character/RPing all the time by requirement. We make sure RPers aren't outdone by powergamers via meaningful rewards and restrictions. We're a tough server, but RP above all else is our top priority!

Something I would like to know, is why are you wanting to change Das? My intention is not to be rude, or to imply that your not welcome or should go somewhere else(i don't wish you to go away) but instead of changing the rules on Das to suit you better(when it has been fine the way it is, for the people that play here) doesn't it seem more logical to find somewhere that suits you better?
I'm a ford man. I like older mustangs. I can appreciate a camero and other muscle cars, but I am not going to buy a camero and try to change it into a mustang. Better to just buy a mustang, yes?