Dasaria II - A NWN2 Roleplay and Story-driven Persistent World

If your in a times zone where its easy to find parties, then it doesn't make too much difference and can go nuts with your character build. If your not so lucky, then cleric/anything is the best and dex based melee with no SA is the hardest as in near impossible, as you just can not dish out enough damage and you don't have much HP. Any roll you would play in a party can also be done better by a strength based fighter, more HP, more damage, more AB and just as good AC.

Basically anything that can self buff has a distinct advantage in Das2, so you end up seeing alot of them. Maybe a bunch of targeted 1/day items would help the other classes out, I know there are single use items but you need a good cash flow to maintain them, which provides another advantage to casters.

Not entirely true, Dex-based meleeists can be highly effective, you just have to either focus on AC (the highest AC I've heard of on the server ain't from a Cleric, Monk or Druid, it's actually a dex based combatant, though he was on the receiving end of a bunch of Sorc and Cleric buffs at the time) or stealth with HiPS.

Sorcerers are actually by far the hardest class to solo as at low levels, due to their limited spell selection, lousy attack bonus, and low HP. At higher levels they are quite powerful, but you still gotta be very careful and situationally aware, otherwise, things can go badly really fast. All it takes it one good crit and you're toast.

The class that I've found is easiest, as everyone says, is Cleric. Heck, as folks who hang out in the IRC know, I nicknamed him "EzMode." A stealthy character with HiPS is also ludicrously easy to solo with, so long as your Hide/MS is your focus, as you can engage and disengage at will with little to no risk.

That said, everyone knows my main is a Sorcerer, so take that as you will.

Sorcerers are actually by far the hardest class to solo as at low levels, due to their limited spell selection, lousy attack bonus, and low HP. At higher levels they are quite powerful, but you still gotta be very careful and situationally aware, otherwise, things can go badly really fast. All it takes it one good crit and you're toast.

Same idea with wizards, except sorcerers have a harder time choseing spells, but an easier time keeping buffs and offensive power up, with more spells per day. Wizards and Sorcerers are by far the most difficult classes to play, and finnaly bloom and gain their power starting around level 10 (Not counting multi-classing), and thats just the beginning, they still aren't a match for most other level 10s until closer to 14.

Fighters, especially AC fighters tend to be quite skilled at staying alive, and I'd say are only a few points below clerics and favoured souls on easiness of play. Similar to dex builds, high AC fighters can do quite well with buffs, as they don't rely on buffs to boost their AC to begin with (Like wizards and clerics).

A hard class I've found is playing an "Archer" class. Perhaps a cleric archer could do quite well, but I've found that any arcane archer focused on useing arcane classes has a fairly difficult time to begin, atleast the first 10 levels.

I have a dex based melee that could do better then my wizard could at level 10, and about as good as my fighter does. He does damage close to that of a fighter, and has many skills fighters don't have, just lacking the durability of a fighter. One on one, from stealth my dex melee usually wins a fight though.

My main is a wizard thoough, so perhaps I'm a bit biased for things that do well in the beginning levels, and relative powerlevels.

I just found this thread and deicided to ressurect it (haha some necromancy skills right here)

I do not agree with few points posted in this thread.

1. Sorcs can be powerfull at early levels depends how you build them, and most AC class on this server is Sorcerer
I soloed Hard goblins on lvl 6 with my sorcerer (using some scrolls i bought/found)
2. Spirit Shaman is almost powerfull like Cleric if you make right build.. There are few way's but i find this class , if done properly very powerfull and asy to play. They can be cooler than Druids combat wise... They get less spells but more spells per day, and some spells are really powerfull;... I also remind that druids/shamans have most powerfull singleperson healing spell, and tough combatant shaman with extended regeneration, many buffs and more storm avatars can do alot...
3. Arcane Trickster ... pick necromancy, stack with different buffs early and then with some nasty spells later, hips at lvl 8, after hips you are very cool, before it there are buffs to help you, just pass lvl 1 to 2 and you are set.. defence emphasizing, and be sure you start with con 14 - there also some races that fit to this class..
4. combat clerics rock, as been said, those are really tough guys to meet..

Since this is a discussion thread, rather than a simple statement thread, I call you out to describe how you build a sorcerer to be the highest AC (also please provide what you call the "highest AC") and be able to effectively solo at level 6. Also, what level you've gotten up to on your sorc? There are highs and lows as you level, areas that are easier or harder, 5-7 is actually pretty easy no matter your class if you know the quests to hit. I'm curious, especially as I've been playing sorcerers on Dasaria for a very long time and so I like to learn how others play them.

Well, that my special build but you can see them on nwn2db
User name SJac
all builds which are lvl 20 are for Dasaria
Not all of my builds, but some of them , yep..

My max Sorc ac at lvl 20 is 59 ac
lvl 6 ac is 38

How your call out going? Everyone stating here... their point of view... and all discussing it then... i discussing it as well, stating MY point of view and MY disagreement with other statements.
Actually, i find that casters are much more powerfull here... dunno how much, but they are, than any pure melee builds..

So I looked at your builds (note, next time, provide a link to one of them because if they're not one on the front page we can't easily find your username to look at your builds, the site doesn't provide a way to search builds by author, I know, I tried. ), they're not what most of us consider when we talk about build here as we're not min-maxers, what we've been talking about here is mostly what would be considered "pure" builds, as in all 20 levels of a single class or 10/10 base class/PrC (except for WM, you never take more than 7 levels of WM), the only real exception for this is Arcane Tricksters, which require more complex multiclassing. When we talk about "sorcerers" or "wizards" being hard to play at low levels, we don't mean a 2th level Sorcerer/ 1st level Cleric, we mean a 3rd level sorcerer, that 1 level of cleric completely changes the way the class is played and it's capabilities.

That said, I have to call out your good-aligned sorcerer build especially, one level of cleric I can accept, but you describe the character in the comments as following Ineania/Enki and yet have the domains of Earth and Luck? It's pretty universally accepted that if we codified domains for the gods, Ineania would have Water, Protection and Magic, look at her titles, the domains are practically listed there (Mistress of Sweet Water and Good Magics, Protector of the Farm). Sorry if I come off as harsh, but you got two strikes on this build for me, the first using domains not associated with a god (I'm a bit of a stickler to PnP in that regard), and then abusing my goddess. ;p

Your neutral version I find more palpable, though Travel isn't commonly associated with Ishtar, Luck certainly is, and I can see a case for Teshalia to have Travel. The evil version I also have trouble with, Undeath is great, and fits well, but again you throw in Luck, which clearly is not associated with any of the evil deities in Dasaria.

I'm curious though, what type of combat do you tend to use when playing a sorcerer. Your builds seem to be of the buff and smash variety given their focus on AC and the use of power attack, but with all the multiclassing your BAB is rather low, and the buff spells definitely can't make up the gap for the attack bonus. Wearing heavy armor limits your combat spell potential too, as you lack any effective metamagic to vary your spells levels with and increase their damage output, so you can't toss around effective direct damage spells. So while you can survive, based on looking at those builds you've got to have an awful time actually killing things. Survivability isn't the only metric to rate builds on, on the damage front I simply think your build falls flat.

Well i have not slight problem that you assume i cant state here , while others can... Please check your way of approach.. i was peaceful, and didn't called out and doubted anyone.. I have rights not to agree with you, and i have proof to my words.. Both builds i have for trickster, spirit shaman (best ones are hidden on nwn2db) and sorceror would be good challenge to anything that comes versus them... Building is cube ,and different people who stand by different sides of it see different walls - one see southern other see northern..

About builds .. well i am not to argue here.. but fact that Sorc class is key for most AC build...
Also sorcerors can have pretty insante protection when they pass start levels, but actually in Das its easy to do using all those peacefull quests..

Also , as domains are not described anywhere precisely, i using my vision, of it , and yes evil and good are deviate some...
(Earth is still valid for Enki - because farm, farmers, harvest and things.. isnt it? luck is bit odd there aye) While neutral is one i really playing now with.. Its the only correct, and active, and the last one with domains adjusted and proper deity choosen for the build..

I have also some hidden SS builds that will be tricky and secret but they work great too.. they are just hiddenn...

I dont like when someone says "that sucks" while i know it is not.... Seems you dont like when others say "you are not correct".. ?
So far Wizards (tricksters) and Sorcs are one of most powerful classes in das (after clerics), given time to overcome hard early lvls.
Sure.. more you throw in PrCs is better.. But when i talking about base class i do not mean it should be taken 20 levels pure - no-one does it, but i mean what you can achieve with starting with that class. So i resent 2 sor 1 cle invalidity... 19 sor 1 cle is still sorcerer..

My Sorc rely on wands too, UMD, and bull str, and combines spell damage with rough hitting using 18 str.
Still it is usefull as tanker, and you can gather many mobs around you.. and then just greater fireburst em..
on lvl 19 (i moved PM to lvl 20) it will be 220% movement speed
Thats a matter of testing - at early lvls i like damage power, but i still have some, and build buy it with total unpenetrability.
Anyways .. dont get me wrong again - i dont say my builds are cool and ur worse.. but saying that most powerfull builds suck at Das, while it's opposite - is wrong ... most weak are 2w spec rangers, fighters of kinds / barbs (much better with rdd, cant avoid that) - if they not casters they are vulnerable to many things...

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that us saying hard to level = not a good class. Nowhere in this discussion has anyone said that Sorcs and Wizards aren't powerful, you're right, they are (I know at least a few folks who curse the fact my completely sub-optimal sorcerer can effectively wipe the floor with their powerbuilds not even trying, did you miss the part where my main is a Sorcerer?), we simply said that they're hard to level, especially at low levels. Your builds don't disprove that, you merely compensate for the difficulty leveling by adding a second class that makes your life easier. Once that happens you're no longer talking about an arcanist, you're talking about a multiclass Sorcerer/cleric, a completely different ballgame. Level a pure sorcerer 1 to 10 without multiclassing and you'll understand where we're coming from.

As to the question of Ineania/Enki, Earth really doesn't fit in my opinion. Ineania's roll in the pantheon is pretty explicit: sweet (fresh) water, protection of the weak, and good magics. The reason she doesn't have earth is that there are two gods who definitely do, and more that may qualify depending on how you look at it: Brintha being explicitly an earth god, and Iaosia who is goddess of all things in the natural world, including the earth. This relationship between Enki and Ki is explicitly highlighted in the "On the Faith of Ineania, Relationships to Other Faiths." (Which, FYI, is DM approved lore on the Faith of Ineania.) Ineania isn't the patron of the farm, she's the protector of the farm, a slight, but significant difference in how interacts with farmers, one would indicate she governs all aspects of farming, the other is a much narrower role. You might also be interested to look at an older thread here that discusses domains and which gods they're associated with. While it is strictly a player discussion, it's useful to see what the consensus of folks are on the matter.

Long term, I do think you're build will have problems dealing damage, and while greater fireburst can help mitigate that, it's not party friendly and there are certain critters in the mid level range that are outright immune to fire. Also critters in Das tend to have really good saves (almost ridiculously so at times :/), so without metamagic to increase your spell damage, you'll run into some problems at higher levels. If you are really set on the melee aspect (which those builds seem to be), it would probably be worth it to pick up martial weapon prof and go into Eldridge Knight for the BAB and HP buff. You'll lose 9th level spells, but honestly for a buff and bash 9th level spell don't do much. Either that or sacrifice the 1 level of pale master to maintain 9th level spells. At the AC levels you're talking about in that build that 2 extra from PM doesn't do much on Dasaria as if you can get to around a 40 AC you're fine for 90% of the content, the only place a 50+ AC makes a difference is Pandemonium (and you can't solo there, period) and in certain DM events, and to be fair, in DM events, if the DMs want you to drop, you'll drop.

By the way, a +3 shield as far as game mechanics are supposed to go, shouldn't stack with the shield spell (As they are both supposed to be shield armour).

As Pere said, you're biggest problem will be your AB. You have 11 AB with base weapons at level 20. 11 AB, +4 from GMW, +4 from greater heroism and +2 from bulls strength still only bring it to 21, which is sub par for a meleeist especially with only 2 attacks per round. My level 15 tank character gets to only slightly less ac then your 53, as he gets to 45 if I recall, and he gets 4 attacks per round at +28 unbuffed. So yes, you are hard to bring down by AC and great work on that, but you'll have a hard time dealing damage.

That and your saves are low enough to cause problems. I know Kor has always run into problems with spells, most enemies can't touch him (Including the ability to tank Canite Harbringers for a while), but one warlock can chip his life away fairly quickly, and he has more then double your saves. Sure, you could raise your saves between Nightshield, Conviction, Superior Resistance and Greater Heroism for a total of +15, but alot of enemies dispel.

Lastly, your life is very very low for a tank. I once tried making a strong tanking rogue. He is quite good, he has higher AC then most fighters do, and he hits hard (he feints to get sneak attacks, while being full shielded with tower shield and fullplate) ... But he doesn't have enough life to take more then a few hits. There are lots of ways to get past AC, be it by spells, or rolling a natural 20 but its not always that hard. False life and Greater Heroism only help so much.

What could be interesting for you to try, is a guy focused on Polymorphing. He could get level 7 spells, maybe 10 EK and 6 sorc, 4 palemaster perhaps. Then use Tensors Transformation with this heavy buffing so you don't need to worry about your low strength/dex/con because they are set to 20. You also get to keep your buffs. This could work for Cleric as well with War (Or fury, I forget) domain, which gets Tensors at level 6 spells, and then you get some other goodies like max BAB from Divine Power, and +6 strength. ((Opps went off on a tangent.))

But yeah, there are many builds that are good, though most of us don't classify 19sorc/1 cleric as a sorcerer because adding 1 cleric just doesn't really fit into our perspective. Not that there is anything wrong with it, but when we were talking about builds, as Pere said, its mainly builds that lean heavily into a class, or have roleplaying reasons for their dips.

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that us saying hard to level = not a good class. Nowhere in this discussion has anyone said that Sorcs and Wizards aren't powerful, you're right, they are (I know at least a few folks who curse the fact my completely sub-optimal sorcerer can effectively wipe the floor with their powerbuilds not even trying, did you miss the part where my main is a Sorcerer?), we simply said that they're hard to level, especially at low levels.

Yep, I know my main, a wizard named Hyel, has beaten a level 20 powerbuilt fighter easily, when hes only 17, (Though thats partially because thats his specialization). Hyel has also done fairly good in a battle against Phelan, when Phelan was 3 levels higher, and had alot stronger capability for melee combat. (Though he lost horribly in another contest .

All characters will have their strengths, and their weaknesses and in our opinion the difficulty of leveling a sorcerer or wizard is its weakness. Not to say it doesn't pay off, they are just late bloomers.

Oh and as a side note, I think I've seen higher then 59 AC one time in Pandemonium when we boosted the AC of a guy with already very high AC. (One who normally doesn't have any spells recieved some wizard and cleric buffs giving him +7 AC).

max ac is achievable if you add on this build tortoise shell with hi caster level, of just use all possible buffs from cleric/druid/wizard list on paladin who have incredible cha and can use DS....

I played Sorc, and once i easilly pass lvl 4 i wont meet any problems.. Thats not my 1st sorcerer... also in das alot of people and peacefull starting quests, so you wont get screwed.. once you have ghostly/mirror images you are cool

for my build it is try... i will build it this way , it is decent buffer , and grater firebursts will help me alot... i tested it and already at low levels imy char is kinda usefull in party - since noone can hit me.. no mob.. i soloed hard gobs with him at lvl 6, and thats not end... you forget that such char can rely on umd, and other thingies...
and i want lvl 9 spells for persistent haste... i wont be hitting people with weapon soon .. i will use mithral .. and cast alot.. the problem that ICE wont work well with EK... but such hasted, tough self-produced AC monstorsity will be able to damage, dont worry.. Again its fun party build, which is easy to level and which can solo for sure..

When we take AC we count character - self abilities... Tough tanker-fighter buffed with other's chars spells is not and option comparing characters maximum ac... You should be yourself produce that ac, by your own... relying on "imagnery" party member is not viable for comparing character's abilities and powers...
and nothing said above do not change my statement - that those classes i listed are pretty good and nice in das.. Which you denied 1st, and then confirmed...

anyways i think pure fighters are weaker in Das.... if not being buffed by clerics/arcanists heh...
Just dont tell me that sorc/AT/SS are weak classes in Dasaria
1st you tell that, then you tell that it is not.. and i *shrug* *huh* and *mkay*

None of us said they were bad, those saying they were hard to level have played strong wizards/sorcs/ATs/ SS in Das. We only say they are hard to level. Infact, I rather enjoy the wizard simply because he is a challenge, because people shy away from pure wizards in favour of multiclassing, and because he has such versitality. My Sorc, he doesn't have any survivalbility, but then again he isn't meant to (Or I would have taken mirror image, and displacement, and imp mage armour... And shield and basically any defensive buff). My fighter when he hits level 20 will have with his equipment 48 AC, and higher if I use charms/potions (Such as bonus from shield charm, bonus from spiderskin potion and restoration for an additional +3), to get to 51 AC. So fighters aren't bad, they are just stronger early game then spellcasters, while the tables turn late game. Thats why clerics are so strong, because they combine the best of both worlds

My opinnion, which have proofs.. that this is incorrect... one of most easy classes to play... you have 2 options... melee and caster one.. in melee you dont care about charisma, in caster one you should have DS.
I have much of shaman builds but one , my current is quite rock, and i think i was able to clear all kalem solo at lvl 7
Died once at lvl 6....

Well then apparently I'm not too good with Spirit Shaman

I have been working with spirit shaman and come up with some better ones, my biggest problem is their lack of really any form of spellcasting with durability. Its hard to have high wisdom and high charisma, and still have any points in survival skills like dex, strength and con. When I made my Spirit Shaman, he was meant to be a Sacred Fist summoner, but he didn't have enough strong summon spells, and with the dip in Monk he just wouldn't do well in a fight anyways.

Also i'll quote some things :

Spirit Shaman - Very difficult to play, even with the best build I could come up with. Can hardly kill a Kalem rogue face to face at level 8. Lots of spells, but few good starter ones, bascially a sorcerer Druid, so makes a great summoner, but you need to hit 9 before you get a really good one. The summons are just behind since your spells are behind a druids. With a level dip in anything you have level 3 spells when people are reaching their 4th. 10/10

My opinnion, which have proofs.. that this is incorrect... one of most easy classes to play... you have 2 options... melee and caster one.. in melee you dont care about charisma, in caster one you should have DS. with caster you must have DS, and most conjuration/evocation spells combined with buffs.. the class work perfectly and i prefer it over druid..
I have much of shaman builds but one , my current (Sh'Assan Boac) is quite rock, and i think i was able to clear all kalem solo at lvl 7
Died once (because of mistake at alechiemist) at lvl 6.... (Wired will confirm that, i still remeber how i prayed to my deity and deity helped me )


some example... also i dont say only you... when i say my opinnion i rely to ALL previous posts in the thread... Please check what people sait - Trickster is hard... but how can be hard trickster with umd, camouflage wand, tieflling hide affinity, hight dex, and hips can be hard to play? esp when you get all those protective buffs?

Sorc wrote:...and it does not change my statement - that those calses (sic) i listed are pretty good and nice in das.. Which you denied 1st, and then confirmed...

anyways i think pure fighters are weaker in Das.... if not being buffed by clerics/arcanists heh...
Just dont (sic) tell me that sorc/AT/SS are weak classes in Dasaria

Let me repeat this: we never said that sorcerers are weak. Being difficult to play solo at low levels is not the same as being weak.

My original post on the matter said:

Sorcerers are actually by far the hardest class to solo as at low levels...

You never refuted this. You instead claimed that a multiclassed Sorcerer/Cleric is the same as a Sorcerer and that because a Sorcerer/Cleric is easy to solo at low levels, Sorcerers are easy to play at low levels. This is simply false.

It also sounds like you've not gotten out of what we consider "low levels" around here. Maybe you've hit mid levels, but keep in mind AC of enemies scales quite quickly in Das. Even with the mithril fullplate you're not gonna be able to cast many spells that aren't stilled. For long running fights or some of the longer dungeons in Dasaria, the ability to modify your bread and butter combat spells to various spell levels (+1, +2 and +3 spell levels via Silent/Still, Empower and Maximize) is essential if you plan on blasting. Otherwise, your damage will be really sub-par.

My biggest suggestion would be to drop power attack and the level of Palemaster, and instead pick up Martial Weapon prof and take 10 level of EK. You'll actually be able to hit things then, and you'll still get your level 9 spells for persistent haste.

Peregrinus wrote:

Sorc wrote:...and it does not change my statement - that those calses (sic) i listed are pretty good and nice in das.. Which you denied 1st, and then confirmed...

anyways i think pure fighters are weaker in Das.... if not being buffed by clerics/arcanists heh...
Just dont (sic) tell me that sorc/AT/SS are weak classes in Dasaria

Let me repeat this: we never said that sorcerers are weak. Being difficult to play solo at low levels is not the same as being weak.

My original post on the matter said:

Sorcerers are actually by far the hardest class to solo as at low levels...

You never refuted this. You instead claimed that a multiclassed Sorcerer/Cleric is the same as a Sorcerer and that because a Sorcerer/Cleric is easy to solo at low levels, Sorcerers are easy to play at low levels. This is simply false.

It also sounds like you've not gotten out of what we consider "low levels" around here. Maybe you've hit mid levels, but keep in mind AC of enemies scales quite quickly in Das. Even with the mithril fullplate you're not gonna be able to cast many spells that aren't stilled. For long running fights or some of the longer dungeons in Dasaria, the ability to modify your bread and butter combat spells to various spell levels (+1, +2 and +3 spell levels via Silent/Still, Empower and Maximize) is essential if you plan on blasting. Otherwise, your damage will be really sub-par.

My biggest suggestion would be to drop power attack and the level of Palemaster, and instead pick up Martial Weapon prof and take 10 level of EK. You'll actually be able to hit things then, and you'll still get your level 9 spells for persistent haste.

1. Initially i didnt told that your post is wrong.
Perhaps your approach after it was..
Watch my initial post... i didnt told that Peregrinus's post is wrong.
Please check other posts in the thread.
I was replying for all of them... after i recieved solid impression of what feeling they create all together.. Which is not correct.
I was replying to a multitude of posts in this thread , which make some firm feel about some certain classes...
then you entered scene and called me out..

2. I cant drop power attack, if i do i lost 7 AC. (divine shield)
This build will be better this way than if i go EK. I will have enough things to blast, and its still good build , which have own powers ,which will be always great in party.. That thing have to do with mobs AB, which scales nicely, but still ... very few mobs will penetrate 59 ac with concealment, and other protective things like DR.
This is not aimed to be mega power build.. just role experiement.. and it is still sorcerror.
Still spell is feature that is most viable with sorcerer (because wiz synergies with dex based classes = SB, Dls, Ro), and Sorcerer synergies with Divine Shield/Might classes (Pal/Cle/BG), which are normally not dexers . 19 Sor 1 Cle is Sor.