Are you guys concened about some of the subraces?

[A Wandering Monk]

I have agreed that something needs to be done to limit the power of the ecl races all along. I posted a possible solution here 2 weeks ago and I still think it is the best solution. Impose a level loss on death for the ecl races after they reach their ecl level. That will make it a challenge for them if they are abusing their power to kill others. And it will probably be a non-issue if they are just rping. I really don't see the downside to this option. If they abuse their power, a group gets together and hunts them down. It will make it extremely difficult for the unsavory types to abuse.



A few points on what I see in this thread.

I'll use the deep gnome to show what he loses by a 190k cap and to show it is too much. He loses 3 ab if mele, 3 dc if caster, saves gained from lvl ups, the lvl 18 feat, the lvl 20 stat point, 3 lvls of skill points, his 28 sr is basically worthless against lvl 20 casters( only a roll of 1 or 2 would not bypass the sr check for any mage with spell pen feats-throw on any breach or mords or asssay and the gnome never resists), and he loses out on any class features from those missing 3 levels. This is way too much for what they get as racials. Their stat adjustment at startup is gain 4 and lose 6. Most of the desirable races are not a net loss for stats.

If the goal is to limit the other races because this is a human setting, then why the emphasis on just the dark races and not on all the h'orcs, dwarves and the elves that are all over the place. If making the dark races less enjoyable to play by making them less powerful than humans is the goal, shouldn't other nonhumans be discouraged also?

If it really is about power than the implementation should be to make them equal, not nerf them to uselessness.

[Rob]

"Certain monsters can be used as the basis for interesting, viable player characters. These creatures have a level adjustment entry, which is a number that is added to the creature's total Hit Dice to arrive at its effective character level. A creature with multiple special abilities is more powerful as a player character than its Hit Dice alone would indicate. For example, a drow elf has spell resistance, bonuses to its ability scores, and spell-like abilities. Its level adjustment of +2 indicates that a 1st-level drow wizard is the equivalent of a 3rd-level character." - Wizards of the Coast

The level adjustment is the mechanism used to balance the player races. By design, humans and drow with the same experience points are effectivily the same level. Thus the term effective class level - ECL.

Since humans are capped at level 20, drow must be capped at level 18 because a level 18 drow is effectivily as powerful as a level 20 human. A level 20 drow is effectivily as powerful as a level 22 human. Humans can not reach level 22 in NWN. Which is why Dasaria needs to have an XP cap.

Understand?

[lockethrowsknives]

My feeling is that the desireably few people who will be good contributors when playing these strange ECL subraces will be doing so for the benefit of developing a unique personality derived from said subrace, rather than from a consideration of power. That said, based on what has been said about the level cap so far, that seems rather appropriate. But hey, what do I know, these power discussions are usually quite beyond me.

[Stormknife]

For a spellcaster though, the loss of 2 or 3 lvl 9 and 8 spells in no way balances with a few stat points, or even spell resistance which can be gained just as easily with a lvl 4 spell.

It's a level 5 cleric spell unless it's moved. Oh, and it can't be dispelled. In the case of drow and tieflings, the Darkness special ability may as well read "Have a free level 2 spell slot".

A drow wizard is going to have, wait for it...1 less level 9 spell per day than a human and be down 2 feats (1 for the bonus human feat, 1 for the bonus feat at level 20 as a wizard). That's it.

[ormane]

That's just it. They wont be substantially less anything. Drow for example, will still have a permanent, what, 29 SR? They get +2 strength and +2 charisma but lose 1 point at 20th? They lose a handful of spells as a caster or about 2 BAB as a melee?

How do they become substantially less powerful by only being able to reach level 18? What am I missing?

Drow: http://www.nwn2wiki.org/Drow
Aasimar: http://www.nwn2wiki.org/Aasimar
Tiefling: http://www.nwn2wiki.org/Tiefling
Duergar: http://www.nwn2wiki.org/Gray_dwarf
Svirfneblin: http://www.nwn2wiki.org/Deep_gnome

Just for the purposes of reference.

The reason why it is perceived as unfair is when a PC loses a level, he or she loses:

- Hit dice (both in HP and in HD calculated for the purposes of spells)
- BAB
- Bonuses to saves
- Spellcaster level (in conjunction with spells per day and spell selection in the case of Sorcerers and Bards)
- Statistic point increases
- Skill point increases
- Feats (in the cast of Svirfs and Duergars)
- And any other bonuses they might receive from reaching a higher level in their class or selection of classes.

I might have missed some.

These negatives pretty far outweigh the positive aspects of choosing the race from a mechanics perspective. This is somewhat class dependent, but in creating a build that is somewhat mechanically powerful, I would be hesitant to give up all of those things for non-focused (or chosen) Stat bonues, powers of limited utility (e.g. Enlarge Person, Light, etc.), and Spell Resistance (which can overcome a lot more easily given Assay Resistance).

So if the intent is to balance the races from a mechanics perspectives, it fails.

What's the solution then? Rebalance the races. Put them more in line with the other non-ECL races and take away their ECL penalty. This can be done while still preserving the character of the races. It also is a great excuse to write up some lore for some of the races that have little background at the moment. I would gladly volunteer to be a part of a team that does this.

As a system to balance de facto the PC population of Dasaria, it does work in that it would disincentivize players to pick these races due to the mechanics drawback of the choice. However, I would ask you to consider that the PC population of the world of Dasaria is only a small portion of the actual population. An imbalance in the PC population shouldn't mean anything dramatic to the player. It might be of some note, but not entirely alarming due to the all the NPC's (which are people, mind you ) they interact with and see passing by on a daily basis.

[Greensleeves]

A drow wizard is going to have, wait for it...1 less level 9 spell per day than a human and be down 2 feats (1 for the bonus human feat, 1 for the bonus feat at level 20 as a wizard). That's it.

A drow wizard will have 2 less lvl 9 spells, 1 less lvl 8 spell, and 1 less lvl 7 spell.

[Stormknife]

A drow wizard is going to have, wait for it...1 less level 9 spell per day than a human and be down 2 feats (1 for the bonus human feat, 1 for the bonus feat at level 20 as a wizard). That's it.

A drow wizard will have 2 less lvl 9 spells, 1 less lvl 8 spell, and 1 less lvl 7 spell.

You're correct in that I screwed up, but your math is still wrong too, unless you're assuming their intelligence scores are identical, at which point we're getting into specific builds. But considering that if you're trying to capitalize on the strengths of a drow you're going to jack its intelligence, it's a fair assumption that its intelligence'll be 2 points higher than the human's.

The Drow will have 1 less level 7, 1 less level 8, and 1 less level 9. The level 9 count is still the same (the +2 intel from the drow in this case).

From my time playing a wizard I can't recally using my level 7s and level 8s for much other than buffs, though. Maybe some metamagics were thrown in there, but almost all of my blasting came from level 9 and level 6, which is where spells per day actually matter.

[Rob]

Boardwalk should cost $375 not $400.

[Maankin]

Yes, some classes will be affected by the limitation to a greater degree than others, but then, it is a player's choice during creation. You can still remake your character using regular gnome race and simply give him darker skin coloration, since it seems your only consideration is cosmetic.

It is a trade-off between power an uniqueness, akin to a half-orc bard or a gnomish barbarian, and, again, in the end the player's choice.

There is a big difference
bard (and illusionist) is the favored class of a gnome

If you want to restrict ECL races, alter the available classes for each race:
for example no deep gnome monks, etc.

[Michael]

Yes, some classes will be affected by the limitation to a greater degree than others, but then, it is a player's choice during creation. You can still remake your character using regular gnome race and simply give him darker skin coloration, since it seems your only consideration is cosmetic.

It is a trade-off between power an uniqueness, akin to a half-orc bard or a gnomish barbarian, and, again, in the end the player's choice.

There is a big difference
bard (and illusionist) is the favored class of a gnome

If you want to restrict ECL races, alter the available classes for each race:
for example no deep gnome monks, etc.

Svirfneblin does not equal rock gnome.

Favored class rogue does not equal favored class bard.

[Tyrande]

A drow wizard is going to have, wait for it...1 less level 9 spell per day than a human and be down 2 feats (1 for the bonus human feat, 1 for the bonus feat at level 20 as a wizard). That's it.

A drow wizard will have 2 less lvl 9 spells, 1 less lvl 8 spell, and 1 less lvl 7 spell.

The drow wizard would also has one less stat point, and one less bonus feat if the decision was to have the XP cap at 190,000.

[broncoblitz]

A drow wizard is going to have, wait for it...1 less level 9 spell per day than a human and be down 2 feats (1 for the bonus human feat, 1 for the bonus feat at level 20 as a wizard). That's it.

A drow wizard will have 2 less lvl 9 spells, 1 less lvl 8 spell, and 1 less lvl 7 spell.

The drow wizard would also has one less stat point, and one less bonus feat if the decision was to have the XP cap at 190,000.

No the drow, would have one less wizard bonus feat and 3 additional stat points over a wizard of a non-ecl race.

Remember, just because you dont gain that last stat bonus at level 20 for the most part you are coming out ahead in the stats department because you recieved an additional +2-+4 in stat points at character creation (in most cases)

[gnatrc]

Please keep your responses very brief and please direct your responses directly to the DM staff rather than commenting on other posts.

I missed that on my few posts in this thread. Sorry about that.

From a gnat's eye view, I think your orginal list of concerns are all correct and the suggested options are all viable from one view point or another. I think you got a lot of good feedback from everyone who posted in this thread and got enough information to implement an informed decision that you feel is best for Dasaria. Thanks for the opportunity to voice our thoughts on the topic.

And Beta is beta. You thoughtfully put the Beta in front of Dasaria 2, but I think Obsidian forgot the Beta in from of NWN2. Not to bash Odsidian too hard, I think once the bugs/kinks get worked out the enjoyment will far outweigh the annoyances....especially on Dasaria 2:).

Thanks,
-gnat

"Boardwalk $375!!!! Ha...you blasphemer!!!"

[seethings]

All discussion of level caps etc aside which are all possible valid methods...what of this simple solution to achieve what you desire Wyvern... More humans less subraces.

If the server has 35 people, limit login of subraces to 10. Anybody who plays a subrace is aware that they will have least access ease, but once in dasaria are treated as per the NWNii rules. This will mean that when the serbver is full most players are humna.

I am an avid gnome player, I could simply have my human back up character ready and if I cannot get on the server because there are bunch of elves in the city doing some shopping, I play human and check back with the server guards a bit later. PERFECT

PRIMARY GOAL obtained. No buggering around with standard rules.


phil

[Vahene]

If the server has 35 people, limit login of subraces to 10. Anybody who plays a subrace is aware that they will have least access ease, but once in dasaria are treated as per the NWNii rules. This will mean that when the serbver is full most players are humna.

It's hard to log in as it is.

I wouldn't personally be for making it even more difficult.

-K