Dasaria II - A NWN2 Roleplay and Story-driven Persistent World

demon022184 wrote:I think full HP's is perfectly fine considering most caster's get many 1d6 per level dmg spells in there repitoire. Not to mention if you did only get half HP per level Wiz would only be at more of a disadvantage when a meleer can kill your L20 Wiz with a 40 dmg crit or two normal hits.

You're forgetting the insane amounts of DR wizards walk around with, as well as Bear's Endurance. A wizard would probably be better off in a low-HP environment than anyone else...if nothing else, it'd mean they'd have many more viable targets for Power Word: Kill.

demon022184 wrote:I think full HP's is perfectly fine considering most caster's get many 1d6 per level dmg spells in there repitoire. Not to mention if you did only get half HP per level Wiz would only be at more of a disadvantage when a meleer can kill your L20 Wiz with a 40 dmg crit or two normal hits.

Lowering the amount of HP's we recieve would greatly hinder completing dungeons without dieing.

I find it disappointing we have so many pvp based thread's. This isn't a PVP server so why worry about it.

Max. hitpoints make the bonus hitpoints you get from from constituton less important. A fighter with 10con has still more hitpoints than a wizard with 20con. That doesn't make much sense when you ask me.

I can live with the max. hitpoints. But i would rather prefer the average hitpoints instead.

Get over it, and just enjoy the game
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I have seen so many threads like this since I joined Das in Nov 2002ish (Jeez i can't even remember when now ). It sometimes feels like Groundhog day

I agree the bigger problem is mass quantities of potions. Once you get above level 6, you should never have money issues. You should be able to get enough gold to buy as many potions as you desire...and keep yourself buffed throughout any adventure.

That is the crux of the problem.

And I'm sorry, stormknife, your argument that you need buffs because other 'power build' classes get it really doesn't hold water. If you have an issue with certain builds thats one thing, but giving everyone a free bull's strength, cat's grace, barkskin, owl's wisdom, protection from evil, shield and bless...all the time, is just plain wrong.

I didn't say I need them because others have them. And I didn't say everyone should get all those things "for free". I said they make things a hell of a lot easier.

As Rowan said, "Get over it. It's a game."

ErictheRed wrote: For everyone else who dismiss my idea out of hand, I don't think you've thought the issue through enough. This is not to imply that you must agree with me, but I really don't think that this tightens the screw of class imbalance. If anything, this loosens the screw by getting hit points more in line with what the designers of D&D actually intended.

Eric, the point of my analogy of comparing your "HP-tweak" to a screw on the Titantic was to illustrate that ...

no matter how statistically-correct your suggestion is.. or faithful to the "true intentions of the designers of D&D" it is (as if you'd know - not a personal attack, just pointing out the silliness of the claim)... Class-imbalance will still remain.

D&D will always be imbalanced in one way or another. The pursuit of trying to balance NWN is like trying to create the world's most glorious, immaculate Shipliner. No matter how many times you measure it and polish it, its going to be a great big waste of manhours, and it will crash and sink to the bottom of the sea.

For seven years, pvp servers for NWN have been trying to balance the game and have not succeeded in this ideality. And they've been trying very hard, with an inconceivable amount of playtesting. Every little "tweak" requires an off-set in other areas of the game to achieve balance. Etc. Etc. It never ends. It's a vicious circle.

So, really your HP-suggestion won't bring anything into balance. It's just a statement by you of how you prefer to play D&D, which is the same as saying you prefer to play Eberron over Faerun, because you like the rules/campaign better.

Delemont wrote:As Rowan said, "Get over it. It's a game."

ErictheRed wrote: For everyone else who dismiss my idea out of hand, I don't think you've thought the issue through enough. This is not to imply that you must agree with me, but I really don't think that this tightens the screw of class imbalance. If anything, this loosens the screw by getting hit points more in line with what the designers of D&D actually intended.

Eric, the point of my analogy of comparing your "HP-tweak" to a screw on the Titantic was to illustrate that ...

no matter how statistically-correct your suggestion is.. or faithful to the "true intentions of the designers of D&D" it is (as if you'd know - not a personal attack, just pointing out the silliness of the claim)... Class-imbalance will still remain.

D&D will always be imbalanced in one way or another. The pursuit of trying to balance NWN is like trying to create the world's most glorious, immaculate Shipliner. No matter how many times you measure it and polish it, its going to be a great big waste of manhours, and it will crash and sink to the bottom of the sea.

For seven years, pvp servers for NWN have been trying to balance the game and have not succeeded in this ideality. And they've been trying very hard, with an inconceivable amount of playtesting. Every little "tweak" requires an off-set in other areas of the game to achieve balance. Etc. Etc. It never ends. It's a vicious circle.

So, really your HP-suggestion won't bring anything into balance. It's just a statement by you of how you prefer to play D&D, which is the same as saying you prefer to play Eberron over Faerun, because you like the rules/campaign better.

On the contrary, just because a slight change in something may only be a drop-in-the-bucket in terms of balance, does not mean we should ignore it or shy away from the idea.

If fireball was bugged and did 3d6 damage per level (so at level 5 it did 15d6), I'm pretty sure that would be considered imbalanced, and most would agree to fix it. On the bright side, thats easy to do too.

That is no more of a 'bug' than hitpoints always being maximum. Who's to say OE didn't decide in their infinite wisdom that fireballs should do 3d6 per level? Your argument seems to dismiss all bugfixes that are geared towards balance or intent of the D&D core rules. I do not subscribe to this view.

However, in spite of my feelings on the matter, it would be extremely difficult to fix because it would require all existing characters (on Dasaria) to be adjusted to fit the new HP model (assuming we gave everyone 75% of their hp roll). That alone is enough reason to dismiss this idea.

ErictheRed wrote:Hi all! First, a quick intro: I played pnp AD&D 2nd Edition for years, and later enjoyed games like Baldur's Gate on the PC. Although I own a 3.0 rulebook, I haven't actually played any pnp roleplaying games since 2nd edition. I did, however, play NWN extensively, and am beginning to do the same with NWN 2. I recently found Dasaria, and so far I'm really impressed. Since this is an open Beta, though, I thought I'd chime in with some random thoughts.

First off, I agree completely with the sentiments on another thread about limiting pickpocketing to items under a certain weight. It just doesn't make sense to be able to pickpocket away someone's armor!

ack for me this was never meant to be a game balanced per class. Its a game balanced for parties. There isnt meant to be PvP quality balance amongst classes. It's not that game.

I like PvP tho' And solo play. And RP and party play. I dont expect much from ay other than entertainment.


sry i jumped in quick after reading only a few posts..

Trinn wrote:this was never meant to be a game balanced per class. Its a game balanced for parties. There isnt meant to be PvP quality balance amongst classes. It's not that game.

Agreed.

Now, how about we start a conversation about how we lower the number of spells casters get per day? Casters are only supposed to be able to rest once per day, right? Get thier spells once per day? Like in D & D, right?

Is this really an important issue?

k9burn wrote:Your argument seems to dismiss all bugfixes that are geared towards balance or intent of the D&D core rules. I do not subscribe to this view.

I do not subscribe to this view either. Since I know you're intelligent k9, I'll refrain from further response to the contrarian segment of your post.

k9burn wrote: However, in spite of my feelings on the matter, it would be extremely difficult to fix because it would require all existing characters (on Dasaria) to be adjusted to fit the new HP model (assuming we gave everyone 75% of their hp roll). That alone is enough reason to dismiss this idea.

I like that summation. Very diplomatic. It's much easier to point-out the difficulty of implementing the fix, than to argue its merits. My mistake. Thanks for the reminder, k9

Grayle wrote:

Trinn wrote:this was never meant to be a game balanced per class. Its a game balanced for parties. There isnt meant to be PvP quality balance amongst classes. It's not that game.

Agreed.

Now, how about we start a conversation about how we lower the number of spells casters get per day? Casters are only supposed to be able to rest once per day, right? Get thier spells once per day? Like in D & D, right?

Is this really an important issue?

I would prefer a full-day for all spellcasters as well...question is, what is a full-day?

Given the 4 minute-to-hour setting, I feel 8 hours (or 32 minutes) is good....however that tends to make it harsher on lower-level casters.

k9burn wrote:

Grayle wrote:

Trinn wrote:this was never meant to be a game balanced per class. Its a game balanced for parties. There isnt meant to be PvP quality balance amongst classes. It's not that game.

Agreed.

Now, how about we start a conversation about how we lower the number of spells casters get per day? Casters are only supposed to be able to rest once per day, right? Get thier spells once per day? Like in D & D, right?

Is this really an important issue?

I would prefer a full-day for all spellcasters as well...question is, what is a full-day?

Given the 4 minute-to-hour setting, I feel 8 hours (or 32 minutes) is good....however that tends to make it harsher on lower-level casters.

While this would be more true to D&D the number of encounters that characters go through in a day is way beyond normal. If we go this route I say we should make resting, "sleeping" heal one hit point per character level. That way everyone will 'slow down'.

Elrith wrote:

k9burn wrote:

Grayle wrote: Agreed.

Now, how about we start a conversation about how we lower the number of spells casters get per day? Casters are only supposed to be able to rest once per day, right? Get thier spells once per day? Like in D & D, right?

Is this really an important issue?

I would prefer a full-day for all spellcasters as well...question is, what is a full-day?

Given the 4 minute-to-hour setting, I feel 8 hours (or 32 minutes) is good....however that tends to make it harsher on lower-level casters.

While this would be more true to D&D the number of encounters that characters go through in a day is way beyond normal. If we go this route I say we should make resting, "sleeping" heal one hit point per character level. That way everyone will 'slow down'.

Yep that too.

I'm pretty much a fan of HCR...however the permadeath can be left out if its too harsh.

The reason resting in PnP is once per day, as Elrith said, is because there's not nearly as many battles going on in a PnP campaign as there is in NwN2. I can't imagine it being possible for a caster to make it through a Dasarian Dungeon without resting once. At least a Caster that's the level said dungeon is meant for.

I think the way it is now, having it slowly increase in minutes, per level is good enough, as it's enough to stop 'unlimited' spell uses for casters. Though I wouldn't be entirely against a system that only allowed you to rest in 'secure' areas, i'm not sure how exactly that'd be possible though, other than the half-assed "Enemy is near" method.

Some things don't translate well from actual D & D to a video game.

For instance, rest should be a ritual: The party should find shelter, make camp, set watch and chance random encounters during that period, as they memorize spells and pray. When was the last time any player here said "I'll take the first watch"? It's like, the most common phrase in D & D, other than maybe "$hit, a 1." Of course, this sort of D & D rest process would be pretty unfeasible here. I think how resting works, however, is one of the biggest class balance issues in this game. it affects hit point renewal -no matter what hit die type, number of spells per day, Special abilities, etc.

Meh. Class imbalance is a pretty boring subject. I guess I just don't see it as an issue yet. We'll see what it's like at level 20. Maybe I'm wrong.