Are you guys concened about some of the subraces?
I vote for the 190,000 xp cap to balance the playing field...and after that let the RP-DM interaction work on its own without consideration of race.
If a person can RP a deep gnome monk paladin (yes its crazy) then, let them. In fact, if someone could actually pull that off, with a believable story and an enjoyable interaction...I for one would love having that person playing.
I am under the assumption that a good RPer who puts passion into his character will probably be rewarded down the road...
...if they just put a race/class combination together for power, with no back story, no interaction, no enjoyment....they will quickly become lost in the shuffle and (hopefully) lose interest in playing.
If a person can RP a deep gnome monk paladin (yes its crazy) then, let them. In fact, if someone could actually pull that off, with a believable story and an enjoyable interaction...I for one would love having that person playing.
I am under the assumption that a good RPer who puts passion into his character will probably be rewarded down the road...
...if they just put a race/class combination together for power, with no back story, no interaction, no enjoyment....they will quickly become lost in the shuffle and (hopefully) lose interest in playing.
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lankycheese
- A Legend in His Own Mind
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I like the level/XP cap idea, and I assume there is a way to have a warning on the class on creation? Similar to the custom dieties thing? Even though it would override the whole game, it could say like:
"When playing on Dasaria the Drow can only attain a max of level 18."
Or something...
Not that these issues matter right now with trying to get the server stable, I'm just bored and posting.
"When playing on Dasaria the Drow can only attain a max of level 18."
Or something...
Not that these issues matter right now with trying to get the server stable, I'm just bored and posting.
Drekk
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Tinuvhiell
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k9burn wrote:I vote for the 190,000 xp cap to balance the playing field...and after that let the RP-DM interaction work on its own without consideration of race.
If a person can RP a deep gnome monk paladin (yes its crazy) then, let them. In fact, if someone could actually pull that off, with a believable story and an enjoyable interaction...I for one would love having that person playing.
I am under the assumption that a good RPer who puts passion into his character will probably be rewarded down the road...
...if they just put a race/class combination together for power, with no back story, no interaction, no enjoyment....they will quickly become lost in the shuffle and (hopefully) lose interest in playing.
This is well put.
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EvilPyrate
- Dasarian
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This rambles a bit, so stick with me.
My characters on Dasaria were several humans, one 'Ling, and one half-orc. The last two were for a couple of fun, I-don't-want-to-be-serious characters.
Look at the sub-races this way - half-orcs outclass humans in their ability as fighters, monks, and barbarians. Does that make it more likely someone will play a half-orc? It hasn't yet.
There is actually more existing campaign support for Tieflings than for most of the new sub-races. During the entire war between Varana and Dasaria, Varana kept calling on more and more nasty powers. They put a lich lord in charge of Dasar before the forces of Daris took it back. They've unleashed all manner of nasty undead and demonic things. With that being the history, demons and other infernals are not particularly known for their altruistic tendencies once unleashed. It makes perfect sense that any number of demons, etc. running loose in the countryside would have waylaid farmers, travelers, camp followers, etc. The nasty side effect of this is a number of unlucky children who are bastards with a demon for a parent or grandparent.
There's already history in Dasaria for Drow (this never sat well with me, personally, but it wasn't my call and most of the players were good RPers). There's no reason any of the other elf sub-races would be out of place. The elves of Riann would make sense as wood elves, but just about any of the flavors of elf (besides Drow) would work.
The Svirfneblin and Duergar only really make sense because Drow were allowed into the original campaign. You could stretch things and suggest that Varana would have dragged in any "allies" it could get its hands on.
There's not really any lore-based reasoning for the Aasimar right now. Some of the gods have assisted Dasaria in the past, and it's possible that this may include Aasimar - there just isn't any lore that supports it that I know of.
When you get right down to it, the biggest thing with most of the sub-races is the ability of the player to make it more than a collection of numbers on a virtual character sheet.
So I'm the most in favor of making IC life harder for non-humans than for game mechanics based nerfs (essentially option 6). I'd even go for sub-races (and maybe any non-human, depending on the severity of Varana's xenophobia) being allowed by DM approval only.
The first thing I'd have to do is ask permission for my Tiefling Druid. I've become rather attached to the character idea that's percolating in my head.
My characters on Dasaria were several humans, one 'Ling, and one half-orc. The last two were for a couple of fun, I-don't-want-to-be-serious characters.
Look at the sub-races this way - half-orcs outclass humans in their ability as fighters, monks, and barbarians. Does that make it more likely someone will play a half-orc? It hasn't yet.
There is actually more existing campaign support for Tieflings than for most of the new sub-races. During the entire war between Varana and Dasaria, Varana kept calling on more and more nasty powers. They put a lich lord in charge of Dasar before the forces of Daris took it back. They've unleashed all manner of nasty undead and demonic things. With that being the history, demons and other infernals are not particularly known for their altruistic tendencies once unleashed. It makes perfect sense that any number of demons, etc. running loose in the countryside would have waylaid farmers, travelers, camp followers, etc. The nasty side effect of this is a number of unlucky children who are bastards with a demon for a parent or grandparent.
There's already history in Dasaria for Drow (this never sat well with me, personally, but it wasn't my call and most of the players were good RPers). There's no reason any of the other elf sub-races would be out of place. The elves of Riann would make sense as wood elves, but just about any of the flavors of elf (besides Drow) would work.
The Svirfneblin and Duergar only really make sense because Drow were allowed into the original campaign. You could stretch things and suggest that Varana would have dragged in any "allies" it could get its hands on.
There's not really any lore-based reasoning for the Aasimar right now. Some of the gods have assisted Dasaria in the past, and it's possible that this may include Aasimar - there just isn't any lore that supports it that I know of.
When you get right down to it, the biggest thing with most of the sub-races is the ability of the player to make it more than a collection of numbers on a virtual character sheet.
So I'm the most in favor of making IC life harder for non-humans than for game mechanics based nerfs (essentially option 6). I'd even go for sub-races (and maybe any non-human, depending on the severity of Varana's xenophobia) being allowed by DM approval only.
The first thing I'd have to do is ask permission for my Tiefling Druid. I've become rather attached to the character idea that's percolating in my head.
1. Doing nothing- letting it roll.
Not particularly a fan of this. Balance is a big issue.
2. Locking the subraces out with a tiny hakpak file.
It has it's benefits, that is balance. But I do feel for those wanting to play the sub-race for reasons not linked to numbers.
3. Removing some of the statistical advantages of the subraces in question
Big fan of this. I think it's very appropriate, caters to the majority. Solves balance issues and allows the class to be played for reasons other than numbers.
4. Giving new advantages to standard races to balance it out.
Though I have no doubt that our developers can achieve this well. I don't think it's necessary when option 3 is available.
5. Requiring DM approval with a waiting period to any player wishing to engage in those subraces.
DM approval or no, there is still a balance issue. Also, there is a big problem with DM approval and perceived favouritisim, whether there or not. Every player should feel equal.
6. Letting players know that this is a human dominated campaign and human and dasaria-standard races will get more opportunities for storyline support, special events, and content opportunities.
Wouldn't really stop someone playing the numbers. The issue of balance remains.
Not particularly a fan of this. Balance is a big issue.
2. Locking the subraces out with a tiny hakpak file.
It has it's benefits, that is balance. But I do feel for those wanting to play the sub-race for reasons not linked to numbers.
3. Removing some of the statistical advantages of the subraces in question
Big fan of this. I think it's very appropriate, caters to the majority. Solves balance issues and allows the class to be played for reasons other than numbers.
4. Giving new advantages to standard races to balance it out.
Though I have no doubt that our developers can achieve this well. I don't think it's necessary when option 3 is available.
5. Requiring DM approval with a waiting period to any player wishing to engage in those subraces.
DM approval or no, there is still a balance issue. Also, there is a big problem with DM approval and perceived favouritisim, whether there or not. Every player should feel equal.
6. Letting players know that this is a human dominated campaign and human and dasaria-standard races will get more opportunities for storyline support, special events, and content opportunities.
Wouldn't really stop someone playing the numbers. The issue of balance remains.
It is better to travel well, than to arrive.
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ChikenKannon
- Dasarian Hero
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Lorne Xavier Sunderson Falderhouse Skulltickler Mearesworth
Oronar - Location: Somewhere over the rainbow
Hello, nub here. I'm actually playing a Tiefling rogue so this affects me, at the time of joining the server (I was directed to it by a friend) I was not aware of the history. I would gladly change my race if asked to do so and I would gladly accept a level cap.
I have to recommend something though, if you do these things please make it very clear. Add it to the server rules or on the subraces (Not sure if you can do this) so that people know.
All in all I can't really complain because it isn't my server and I haven't done anything so far to help build the community and/or the module.
I have to recommend something though, if you do these things please make it very clear. Add it to the server rules or on the subraces (Not sure if you can do this) so that people know.
All in all I can't really complain because it isn't my server and I haven't done anything so far to help build the community and/or the module.
The largest wound will come from those you considered friends.
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Nuclear Diva
- Dasarian
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i am relatively new myself here but i have to disagree with your assumption that you haven't contributed. You showed up didn't you?ChikenKannon wrote:All in all I can't really complain because it isn't my server and I haven't done anything so far to help build the community and/or the module.
"Dreams come true. Without that possibility, nature would not incite us to have them" John Updike
Diva is correct in what she said. And welcome.
As far as the races go, this has been the hottest and most spiked, barbed, double-edged, general pain in the arse subject for us by far. And we STILL can't decide what is going to happen. Right now, they are all open. And because we aren't in the business of wiping out entire races of characters en mass, I think we are now in the position where we have to deal with them (hell, I even play one of those pesky ECLs myself). Expect attitudes towards them to shift however, as we can shift focus on them (wont be for a while since we are still a long way from having mainstream content built yet). Also don't expect to get one of them to 20th. The level/xp cap is pretty much a given I think, because I believe there is/will be a 190,000xp cap in place. Again, nothing formal has been announced yet, but it is still early days so let's just see how things take shape. We will try not to rock the boat TOO much, but no promises.
As far as the races go, this has been the hottest and most spiked, barbed, double-edged, general pain in the arse subject for us by far. And we STILL can't decide what is going to happen. Right now, they are all open. And because we aren't in the business of wiping out entire races of characters en mass, I think we are now in the position where we have to deal with them (hell, I even play one of those pesky ECLs myself). Expect attitudes towards them to shift however, as we can shift focus on them (wont be for a while since we are still a long way from having mainstream content built yet). Also don't expect to get one of them to 20th. The level/xp cap is pretty much a given I think, because I believe there is/will be a 190,000xp cap in place. Again, nothing formal has been announced yet, but it is still early days so let's just see how things take shape. We will try not to rock the boat TOO much, but no promises.
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ChikenKannon
- Dasarian Hero
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Lok'Tok
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Gutsnikk
Lorne Xavier Sunderson Falderhouse Skulltickler Mearesworth
Oronar - Location: Somewhere over the rainbow
I do have one request/polite-notification-of-opinion, if you do happen to wipe the slate clean of certain sub-races and then will only allow them through permission. Could you say this a week before you wipe and allow people to ask for permission to keep their characters?
Just so that not all people don't have to go through painful 5000 xp worth of missions as level ones (the thorn of the sub-races).
Just so that not all people don't have to go through painful 5000 xp worth of missions as level ones (the thorn of the sub-races).
The largest wound will come from those you considered friends.
Well to start with I'm new here, so my opinions will probably carry less weight then other peoples but here they are...
1. Doing nothing- letting it roll.
This is a silly choice... Subraces should be allowed and treated like they should be in game.
If someone plays a Drow aside from the Xp and "Mechanics" side of things their should be social impacts. I say this not so people will be hated but i their playing a Drow then they want the Drow experience, they don't want to be loved by everyone off the bat, it takes away the fun.
2. Locking the subraces out with a tiny hakpak file.
You could do that, but then you loose variety. Personally I hate the idea.
3. Removing some of the statistical advantages of the subraces in question
This is DnD the races are for the most part balanced start tinkering with that and people who last week were doing okay/well suddenly find out things have changed on them and you end up destroying hours of work.
I'd rather not have this done.
4. Giving new advantages to standard races to balance it out.
Standard races are balanced by not having an ECL modifier, I fail to see how any aside from Half-orc/elf need any sort of help whatsoever.
5. Requiring DM approval with a waiting period to any player wishing to engage in those subraces.
Could do this, but that puts more work on the DM's. Would allow Dm's the chance to stop silly combinations from occuring or the server getting flooded by drizzt's
6. Letting players know that this is a human dominated campaign and human and dasaria-standard races will get more opportunities for storyline support, special events, and content opportunities.
Sure Human dominated.
Most of DND is as well.
But suggesting that subrace players would be ignored, or relegated into second position just because of their chosen race is ridiculous. This should be decided by roleplay and how well a person plays their character, not just because its a human dominated world.
On a side note I'm playing a Tiefling, and yes she's a rogue.
I do it because I like it, and it fits with an overall character I have in another game, so I can steal some of the story I already thought up rather then having to be totally original, again.
Edit for Anen:
I think DM approval to keep subraces to within acceptable levels is a good idea.
Anything else just starts to get a bit silly. When you start rebalancing things everything else starts to shift. Best to leave as is and make adjustments around something thats static.
1. Doing nothing- letting it roll.
This is a silly choice... Subraces should be allowed and treated like they should be in game.
If someone plays a Drow aside from the Xp and "Mechanics" side of things their should be social impacts. I say this not so people will be hated but i their playing a Drow then they want the Drow experience, they don't want to be loved by everyone off the bat, it takes away the fun.
2. Locking the subraces out with a tiny hakpak file.
You could do that, but then you loose variety. Personally I hate the idea.
3. Removing some of the statistical advantages of the subraces in question
This is DnD the races are for the most part balanced start tinkering with that and people who last week were doing okay/well suddenly find out things have changed on them and you end up destroying hours of work.
I'd rather not have this done.
4. Giving new advantages to standard races to balance it out.
Standard races are balanced by not having an ECL modifier, I fail to see how any aside from Half-orc/elf need any sort of help whatsoever.
5. Requiring DM approval with a waiting period to any player wishing to engage in those subraces.
Could do this, but that puts more work on the DM's. Would allow Dm's the chance to stop silly combinations from occuring or the server getting flooded by drizzt's
6. Letting players know that this is a human dominated campaign and human and dasaria-standard races will get more opportunities for storyline support, special events, and content opportunities.
Sure Human dominated.
Most of DND is as well.
But suggesting that subrace players would be ignored, or relegated into second position just because of their chosen race is ridiculous. This should be decided by roleplay and how well a person plays their character, not just because its a human dominated world.
On a side note I'm playing a Tiefling, and yes she's a rogue.
I do it because I like it, and it fits with an overall character I have in another game, so I can steal some of the story I already thought up rather then having to be totally original, again.
Edit for Anen:
I think DM approval to keep subraces to within acceptable levels is a good idea.
Anything else just starts to get a bit silly. When you start rebalancing things everything else starts to shift. Best to leave as is and make adjustments around something thats static.
Last edited by Zephis on Wed Nov 15, 2006 7:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Peregrinus
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Actually, because Zephis cited the ECL and level adjustment rules, I think he/she'd agree to the XP cap.
So far I like this idea, though it kills one of my favority things to do once you hit level cap. Export the character and see how many levels they gain when taking into a NWN campaign (Falson, at max XP went from 20 to 24 instantly ;p)
So far I like this idea, though it kills one of my favority things to do once you hit level cap. Export the character and see how many levels they gain when taking into a NWN campaign (Falson, at max XP went from 20 to 24 instantly ;p)
I change my mind.
I could care less about numbers. What I care about is campaign integrity.
Disallow Teiflings and Aasimar. They are supernatural creatures best meant for non-player character usage. Give them to the player community and suddenly the supernatural will be mundane and without rarity. Every other character will be the sons and daughters of the gods. Hell, disallow or ammend any subrace in whatever way the staff desires.
Aasimar and Teiflings have about as much to do with Dasaria as Klingons and Cylons. Sure, you see them in the Forgotten Realms. This isn't the Forgotten Realms.
If players want to play these races, there are other servers that will offer them that privledge. Dasaria will not have a shortage of players because of restrictions to race selection. If players end up leaving because they can't play a teifling, well, they aren't the sort of players we want here, anyway.
We players are supposed to adapt to the campaign, not expect the campaign to adapt to our personal preferences.
I could care less about numbers. What I care about is campaign integrity.
Disallow Teiflings and Aasimar. They are supernatural creatures best meant for non-player character usage. Give them to the player community and suddenly the supernatural will be mundane and without rarity. Every other character will be the sons and daughters of the gods. Hell, disallow or ammend any subrace in whatever way the staff desires.
Aasimar and Teiflings have about as much to do with Dasaria as Klingons and Cylons. Sure, you see them in the Forgotten Realms. This isn't the Forgotten Realms.
If players want to play these races, there are other servers that will offer them that privledge. Dasaria will not have a shortage of players because of restrictions to race selection. If players end up leaving because they can't play a teifling, well, they aren't the sort of players we want here, anyway.
We players are supposed to adapt to the campaign, not expect the campaign to adapt to our personal preferences.