Potions

papaya taco · Post by **papaya taco** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 1:04 pm

SnorriHT wrote: Well that person will get a nasty surprise when the Design team start putting in traps that cast Greater Dispel, Energy drain or Bigby's Grasping Hand on them won't they?

If this is actually being planned, let it be known that Energy Drain sucks. Do Enervation instead; no save at all for that one.

SnorriHT · Post by **SnorriHT** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 1:44 pm

papaya taco wrote:
SnorriHT wrote: Well that person will get a nasty surprise when the Design team start putting in traps that cast Greater Dispel, Energy drain or Bigby's Grasping Hand on them won't they?
If this is actually being planned, let it be known that Energy Drain sucks. Do Enervation instead; no save at all for that one.

even better

It was really just to illustrate the point when someone says "I'm zo tuff da thingz r ezy coz I got da spelz" is just throwing a red flag in front of the designers to create some anti-caster carnage

Mon-da-oth · Post by **Mon-da-oth** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 1:45 pm

I like it when someone triggers an electrical trap and the only ones left standing are the rogues.

Vay · Post by **Vay** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 3:01 pm

I hate it when I say to my party "Watch out, there's a trap here." and not 5 seconds later, some bumbling idiot runs up on top of it, and I get zapped to death. It's appalling how many times that's happened.

urgualamand · Post by **urgualamand** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 3:39 pm

Indeed, but also fun sometimes.. instead of shouting at them, then stand back a bit and watch the show.. they trap and die.. they trap and die.. pretty funny , if you're not standing next to the trap

Bobzim · Post by **Bobzim** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 5:29 pm

Rogues (since they have mucho UMD) can bring rez scrolls with them and charge fees for the "bumbling idiots" who get everyone killed by rushing onto traps.

Back to the main point of this thread: healing during fights.

First and foremost, the content was WAY too easy initially due to the "exploit" of carrying unlimited insta-heal pots. It was ridiculously easy to solo any content that was level appropriate. Bugbears (with a few Ghostbane charms) was pathetically solo-able. Almost trivially so. That is why it became the farmer's paradise.

The change the DMs made to the healing pots has helped a lot to make the content less trivial. I LOVE the new healing pots as they offer a lot more healing power (over time) than the original ones.

Of course, that requires a change in tactics. Instead of stockpiling stacks of insta-cure pots, now a player has to choose the right time to start the regen and supplement it with healing kits as needed. A handy wand of cure crit can be helpful, though I have never found reason to use mine.

Also, instead of just standing in there toe-2-toe with the MOBs beating on you, a player might have to change battle tactics, possibly working together with other PCs to spread the damage. Maybe make use of a clerics healing for the first time ever. I really hated when a melee character could just stand there, getting beat on, and chug pots as needed. That was lame and quite contrary to the point of playing this type of game.

There are SO many different tactics that were never used before because it was just too easy to stand there and defeat whatever came your way. As mentioned, rogue traps can hugely sway the tide of battle by dropping the first few mobs outright, or at least knocking the initial wave down to a more manageable level. Use of doorways has always been helpful in creating bottlenecks. Possibly pulling with Wizzy AE spells, or using single pull tactics. Can anyone say "crowd control" tactics? Talk about spells that are rarely used. Wizzies have abundant crowd control spells that they never use because they haven't been needed so far.

I am so glad that the days of everyone just rushing into the fight, come what may, are yielding to a time when team play and smart tactics will be REQUIRED to play on Das2. It's about time. If anything, I would like to see the content made even harder. Figuring out tactics to overcome difficult content is what makes this type of game fun. It's boring if all you do is rush in and start swinging. That's what Playstation games are for. Blech!

Elerion · Post by **Elerion** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 6:33 pm

I too love complicated content, with a few caveats:
- Content that requires complex strategies implies hard content, which penalizes RP builds.
- Content that requires complex strategies may discourage non-typical gamers.
- Content that requires complex strategies can in some cases be hard to do completely IC, for those that prefer that.

Because the server aims to please both hardcore non-typical gamer roleplayers and moderate powergamers and everything in between, there's a need for alternative content that isn't massively challenging.

That said, I don't think any of the current content can be described as "massively challenging", so it's not a problem for now.

Bobzim · Post by **Bobzim** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 8:14 pm

More to the point, I think most of the existing content should be described as "fairly easy". Of course, this implies that the players in the party know each other, cooperate well, communicate, don't rush, and utilize the benefit of each represented class, rather than rushing into each encounter without forethought.

There is nothing in Das2 that can't be solo'd at the appropriate PC level (other than Orcs, but that is by design and not difficulty). I would love to see some encounters where this is not the case. That is to say, I would love to see content that requires a well-balanced group to complete.

But you're right, that would mean some RPers who do not have anything resembling a "power build" would be left out. Of course, they could tag along with a group that is well-balanced.

Of course, none of the bullet points you mentioned are accurate until you have tried various tactics to overcome that "complicated" or challenging content. My feeling is that the folks who complain about the new healing pots like the content to be the way it was before: Ridiculously easy.

And that is a shame. I am pretty sure the DMs have a good handle on the balance and will make the content appropriate for all player types on Das.

Chia · Post by **Chia** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 8:28 pm

Bobzim wrote:My feeling is that the folks who complain about the new healing pots like the content to be the way it was before: Ridiculously easy.

Personally, I did not think it was ridiculously easy, save for the vampire quest, which I always took more as a humorous addition rather than norm (whomever came up with that one deserves an award for a wicked sense of humor

).

Stormknife · Post by **Stormknife** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 8:30 pm

It definitely wasn't ridiculously easy unless you were one of a few certain classes.

Xira · Post by **Xira** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:19 pm

The problem is why should a cleric heal you when they can heal themselves and do just as much damage as you:D

Xira · Post by **Xira** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:49 pm

Elerion wrote:I too love complicated content, with a few caveats:
- Content that requires complex strategies implies hard content, which penalizes RP builds.
- Content that requires complex strategies may discourage non-typical gamers.
- Content that requires complex strategies can in some cases be hard to do completely IC, for those that prefer that.

I'll agree with this. I left becuase my RP-build charecter couldn't be played.

Bobzim · Post by **Bobzim** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 10:43 pm

Obviously, for some players, the notion of an "RP Build" is less than tangible. I don't feel that my "build" per se has a direct impact on how I RP my character. Just because someone uses a build that is more powerful than another (i.e., some MC builds are quite strong compared with "pure" builds) doesn't necessarily mean they have to RP the character differently. RPing, to me, has to do with what the player chooses to say and do amongst other players. Whether you have a "strong" build versus a "weak" build may impact to some degree your PvP fighting abilities, it doesn't necessarily impact your RPing success.

I guess what I am trying to say is, if you plan to PvP fight as part of your RPing, you ought to make a build that will be strong enough to stand a chance against other strong builds. If you are not going to fight other players, then I really don't see how your build impacts your RPing. I mean, you choose how to RP your character, regardless of his/her stats.

I RP my characters based on things like personality, background story, etc. But there is no reason why the build should affect the RPing. It's not like other players can "see" your build or know what it is. So RP it how you like.

My points above have to do with how much fun the content is for experienced players in well-balanced groups using good tactics. And I think most players would agree it ain't that hard at any level.

Elerion · Post by **Elerion** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 11:09 pm

I do the same, Bobzim. I build my characters for power in their chosen direction, unless that build would be very RP-contradicting (Like a priest of Iaosia with the death domain and a shadow companion). One doesn't have to build their character in the way that makes the most sense RP-wise to be able to RP.

However, some people choose to do so, because that's what's fun for them. They take levels in particular orders because that's what makes sense due to their IC training, even though another order would be better. They ignore multiclassing options that they don't see a good IC reason for their characters to choose, etc.

The point is that you don't want to exclude the latter group from playing the game.

My points above have to do with how much fun the content is for experienced players in well-balanced groups using good tactics. And I think most players would agree it ain't that hard at any level.

No, but that's not what Dasaria is about. I've been a cutting edge raider in EQ and WoW, and know how fun challenging content can be. I don't come to Dasaria to get a huge gameplay challenge. I realise that me and a few hardcore gamer friends would be able to tear through anything Dasaria ever offers with ease if we tried, but that's a necessary evil when you want to satisfy a large group of players. And if we wanted very challenging combat, there are many games far better suited for that. The DnD/NWN system is notoriously clunky and random.

Cliff's notes:
- If you want to allow everyone to experience what the game has to offer, content can't be "hard" for powergamers (the non-derogatory meaning of the word).
- If you want combat challenges for a group of avid gamers, there are many games far better suited for that.

urgualamand · Post by **urgualamand** » Tue May 01, 2007 8:33 am

Aye says I, to the two last posters.

I have made some different character up to now. Not power builds, but they can stand their ground. But I'm pretty sure power builders will frown at my new char, Kai. He has different classes complementing his story, and he advances in the class that will be best for him to advance in, overall. He is not made to be weak, but he is compared to most character he travel with. He will be doing a lot of PvP later on and he will loose a lot, as he does now PvE. Its ok, I love him RP wise, and Ive been in the high levels with other chars.. no rush, its boring at the top while there are no quests. But I can imagine a person with a bad build char, who's only dream is to be high level for some reason!?, will have a hard time..