Public dicussion of Cear City Guard.

Trinn · Post by **Trinn** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 2:33 am

IC Rhedd'n) Pocketing that 50g, innocently? I can't see it. Not here. I worry about how much enthusiasm for the law it may generate. The Cear guard don't seem too concerned with clear justice ive noticed. More about getting a job done.

((fair point re: ooc, i didnt say it was so, and wasnt my usual char in mind

Anen · Post by **Anen** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 6:40 am

My $0.02.

I perceive a City Watch as providing a service to the server. I'll let you guess what that is—and no, it's not enforcing IC laws.

It's providing players with a dynamic, roleplayable guard. Instead of brainless automatons the players have real guards to roleplay and interact with—this is a great tool and adds a fantastic element.

The fact that the City Watch's responsibility is to also enforce IC laws is secondary to this. They perform a very important campaign function, and as such deliver a vital RP element. Enforcing IC law is secondary.

I say this so ardently, because the IC law in Cear right now isn't exactly "democratic". It's facist. It is Imperial Law—it was clearly designed to be changed at a whim, and to serve as merely a tool to control the population. It is very tight law, and in reality, many people would not be having a great time living under such scrutiny.

That is why the guards must be very careful that this kind of effect does not replicate itself onto Dasaria. The minute players are not having fun and are burning out because of overzealous, overburdening guards, the City Watch has failed.

That doesn't mean they can't roleplay overbearing guards. This entire post refers to the methodology surrounding the enforcement of IC laws. I think every City Watch employee, when enforcing the IC law, needs to think really long and really hard on if his or her actions will negatively impact the gameplay for others. Will they be ruining someone's evening? Someone's game? If so, they need to put a lot of thought into that action, and need to conclude if its worth it or not.

Yes, sometimes a player will be put into a situation that is not very fun—Jehannum said it best, IC actions will reflect very real and very serious IC consequences. But the bottom line is, "Is it worth it?" Is staying true to the campaign direction worth alienating a player? Let's take the brandishing weapon law—is it worth alienating a player over a drawn greatsword in town?

I admire the responsibility the guards have, and know it's a tough situation to be in. I can only imagine the kind of situations you guys will have to deal with. It's important, however, that it is dealt with in a responsible manner, and with the goal that everyone should log out having had fun.

In my opinion, the guards serve an RP purpose—that is their chief mandate. Law Enforcement comes secondary.

My $0.02.

- Anen

edt: I've been thinking on this awhile, and the more I think about it the more it bugs me. I feel that the campaign has not matured enough to support a guard faction, and with the DM Client not even operational, it's premature to jump the gun with it.

I would like to see what the DMs can do in establishing an overbearing guard. When that example is set, then I would feel it would be acceptable to see a player faction follow.

I'm just really uncomfortable with it—the IC laws are just not conducive to good play. It's just so fragile.

Grayle · Post by **Grayle** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 7:20 am

Agreed. The best factions/Guilds/what-have-you fill both an IC niche/need and also OOC to entertain, by further creating dynamic atmosphere. Each PC faction would have particular complications and complexities, defined by thier role.

For instance, the Watch/Guard will probably engauge in much PvP. Those players have to show some restraint in this respect, not always simply desiring to win combat. Thier IC goal isn't to win. Thier goal is to uphold the laws, for good or evil. Of course, role-play can affect private agendas...But it's not the sort of faction to join if you don't want to read the laws and other lore. Knowing the difference between IC laws and Server rules is also paramount.

Anen, among others, speaks wisdom.

I also feel that without more room for adventuring, elbows are being bumped too easily/frequently. Massive player traffic and no DM client adds to active DM monitoring complications. These factors greatly impact the effectiveness of the guard, in both IC and OOC impact.

White Wolf935 · Post by **White Wolf935** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:12 am

i thank everyone for their good word of advice's i will continue to monitor this post and drain information down to possible guidelines both ic and ooc guidelines.

muletang · Post by **muletang** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:20 am

I agree anen. When the game arrived and I was weting my self with ideas I had all sorts of notions on clans and factions with much rubbing of hands and gnashin of teeth. but i realised that i had a where from, but no where to. So have put everything on ice for the moment.

EDIT - thats not to say I've a problem with anything happening, just voicing what had gone on in my brain

thedork · Post by **thedork** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:00 am

50 gold?

5000 wouldnt be unreasonable

jawsofhana · Post by **jawsofhana** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 7:18 pm

The fact that the City Watch's responsibility is to also enforce IC laws is secondary to this. They perform a very important campaign function, and as such deliver a vital RP element. Enforcing IC law is secondary.

I feel this goes hand in hand. Enforcing IC laws deliver a vital RP element.

I say this so ardently, because the IC law in Cear right now isn't exactly "democratic". It's facist. It is Imperial Law—it was clearly designed to be changed at a whim, and to serve as merely a tool to control the population. It is very tight law, and in reality, many people would not be having a great time living under such scrutiny.

Indeed, I completely agree. My characters are not enjoying living under this rule. However, I do not take this OOC.

That is why the guards must be very careful that this kind of effect does not replicate itself onto Dasaria. The minute players are not having fun and are burning out because of overzealous, overburdening guards, the City Watch has failed.

The laws are quite clear. People who choose to break the law (like I do) ask for trouble to come and find them. People who just break the law out of ignorance, or stupidity, also ask for this kind of trouble.

That doesn't mean they can't roleplay overbearing guards. This entire post refers to the methodology surrounding the enforcement of IC laws. I think every City Watch employee, when enforcing the IC law, needs to think really long and really hard on if his or her actions will negatively impact the gameplay for others. Will they be ruining someone's evening? Someone's game? If so, they need to put a lot of thought into that action, and need to conclude if its worth it or not.

No, this does not mean they can't RP 'overbearing' guardsmen, but I for one; feel that an overbearing guardsman should be rare in the setting. The law here does not seem overbearing.

If they ignore lawbreakers, they ruin immersion. Which in turn ruins my gameplay.

Yes, sometimes a player will be put into a situation that is not very fun—Jehannum said it best, IC actions will reflect very real and very serious IC consequences. But the bottom line is, "Is it worth it?" Is staying true to the campaign direction worth alienating a player? Let's take the brandishing weapon law—is it worth alienating a player over a drawn greatsword in town?

Yes, it is worth risking to alienate this player. If he takes such an IC action OOC'ly, because he might have forgotten OOC to sheathe his weapon, the player should probably reconsider his realmtype.

If breaking IC laws don't have IC reprecussions, it will break the immersion of the world. I speak only for myself, but I care more about keeping a flawless immersion in the world, then for the powergamer who does not wish to sheath his blade in the city. (and usually runs around with 200 buffs up constantly)

Guard: "Hey, you sheathe that blade!"

The stranger does not answer and runs away.

Guard: "I warned you." *splat*

Perfectly acceptable.

Anen · Post by **Anen** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 7:34 pm

You're looking at this in a very "black and white" manner. I am not making any assertions or acccusations in my post—my suggestions are exploratory. I am underlining the importance and responsibility of a guard's power. They are a DM Sanctioned faction, and as such must be very aware of how their actions are perceived on the server.

I played a Redboot Character in the first campaign, and served as the Brigadier. I declared Martial Law and took control of the town—I had complete and total control over the IC "political" set-up. I was the proverbial dictator. I was walking a very fine line, and did my best to respect the "cost / benefit" ratio that guards today need to understand. Yes, campaign integrity is very important, but remember: this is still a game, and when people start to get annoyed and frustrated with what's going on, then we need to collectively re-evaluate what it is we're doing.

Then minute you rank campaign integrity above the collective enjoyment of the players of a server, I believe the server has failed in cultivating a "gaming" enviornment. This is a platform for entertaining one another. Let's keep it that way.

Now—are my posts complaints? No. They are suggestions. They are reminders. I have personally witnessed some touchy RP in terms of how far a guard will go to enforce the law, and I have witnessed some fantastic RP. It's early in the game yet, so there is plenty of time for this faction to unfold.

Ebrim Darkmoon · Post by **Ebrim Darkmoon** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 7:53 pm

Well he's not actually being contradictory -- he's saying that his character doesn't enjoy being under tyrannical rule, but that the lack of enjoyment his character feels doesn't go OOC (i.e., it doesn't follow that he is not enjoying the game.)

That said, I agree with you -- in-game realism works only up to a point. If it is carried out to it's logical extreme, eventually (I suspect) most players will find it discouraging and frustrating rather than exciting and intriguing.

I've always wondered if online servers don't unconciously drift just a little toward the Sanford Prison Experiment in situations where "in-game realism" is weighted more toward 'realism' than 'game'...

Anen · Post by **Anen** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:03 pm

Ebrim Darkmoon wrote:Well he's not actually being contradictory -- he's saying that his character doesn't enjoy being under tyrannical rule, but that the lack of enjoyment his character feels doesn't go OOC (i.e., it doesn't follow that he is not enjoying the game.)

I had read that a little differently, but that makes more sense.

I've always wondered if online servers don't unconciously drift just a little toward the Sanford Prison Experiment in situations where "in-game realism" is weighted more toward 'realism' than 'game'...

And wow, that's an interesting analogy. I briefly studied the Sanford Prison Experiment, and this assertion is term paper material, man.

Ebrim Darkmoon · Post by **Ebrim Darkmoon** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:04 pm

Heh. I'm too lazy to write papers like that...

White Wolf935 · Post by **White Wolf935** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:21 pm

well, anything else people have on their heart. ? i'm still needing advice or tips on how to possible handle things? in a way thats fair to those who feels we've been top pushy.

ps: any ex guards of redboot please post to inform me of your former past. and you'll be granted tempory access to the cear guard forum to look and advice on the guidelines.

Greyshore · Post by **Greyshore** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:30 pm

I say cast a spell which petrifies the runners.

And we would dress them up as...! *coughs*

...

Perhaps the petrifying spell is enough. With a bit of scripts goodness, I'm sure you can make it work...if it doesn't already.

baby1111007 · Post by **baby1111007** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 2:57 pm

White Wolf935 wrote:well, anything else people have on their heart. ? i'm still needing advice or tips on how to possible handle things? in a way thats fair to those who feels we've been top pushy.

ps: any ex guards of redboot please post to inform me of your former past. and you'll be granted tempory access to the cear guard forum to look and advice on the guidelines.

Remember, your guards are going to come in contact with some really wily villans, the kinds that will know the law, use the law and twist the law. The hardest part will be NOT letting your OOC knowledge that this player is this major criminal influence you and instead judge by just the facts.

That being said, you are also going to be dealing with the more irritating types who feel that this is their game and they dont have to follow the laws and you cant make them. That is when your guards reports, screenshot, etc will come into play. Remember the more reports of these said players lawbreaking, the easier it is for the DMs to give EoS status.

The one last thing I want to caution about is PERCEIVED favortism. This will sometimes be the hardest thing you will have to deal with. When a friend or a known hero breaks the law, they are still breaking the law. Your job is to uphold the law. Sometimes that will mean making a decision that sits ill with you, but it must be done. The one thing you have the show is that you enforce the law consistantly, no matter who the lawbreaker is. Just this one thing will go far in all seeing the guards in a better light.

Trinn · Post by **Trinn** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 4:42 pm

IC Rhedd'n)
Hey. Ok, I can see you need some help, and your asking for suggestions. Hell, I may even help out myself, but not until I get just what you lot are upto. And yea, I'm still talking about fines and such. I'm all for some degree of law and order, but there no way I'm putting my name down to stand alongside a bunch of vigilante's lining their own pockets. Just how does this group of apparent well wishers fit into the bigger picture? Just who are ya reporting too?

Now I'm interested ya see, 'cause these kinds of things are important, an well, IF you can convince me youre thinking these things through then like I say, I'll be putting my name down to stand with ya. Just gotta be sure it's the right cause to be fightin for.