Hit Points per level and other random thoughts

[ErictheRed]

Wow this thread seems to have grown quite a bit...perhaps it's grown out of hand.

I'd like to clarify the intention of this thread. This hit point fix was not meant to be done specifically for class balance issues, and definitely not for PvP issues as some people assume. I'm not even trying to argue that Wizards are getting the shaft overall because of this hit point issue. People miss the point when they start saying that I'm forgetting about all the damage reduction and AC increasing spells Wizards get. I'm not missing the point at all--I'm simply talking about HIT POINTS ONLY, not whether wizards are weaker than warriors.

I merely pointed out what I considered to be a problem with the current system. Let me make an analogy. K9burn points out that if Fireball did 3d6 points of damage/level, that would be a bug and everyone would want it fixed. Well what if all damage rolls were considered max?? What if everytime you hit with a Longsword you automatically rolled an 8? What if each Magic Missile always did 5 points of damage? Everyone would want that changed, wouldn't they? That's really all I'm saying about hit points.

As to what the designers intended concerning hit points, Delemont is right that I'm not privvy to their innermost motives. However, if they wanted everyone to have max hit points per level, don't you think the Player's Handbook would read 4d1 instead of 1d4? It's obvious that the designers wanted people to roll for their hit points, just as obvious as the fact that they assumed people would roll for damage, initiative, skill checks, etc.

Anyway I'll sum up this post by reiterating that I'm not complaining about Dasaria 2 in any way. I've enjoyed the time I've spent playing here so far, and it's obvious that a lot of care has gone into the module. Since this is an OPEN BETA, I made a post about something that I think is "bugged" (whether intentionally or not). I'm not crying about class balance. I'm not trying to initiate a never-ending tweak cycle. I realize that things work differently in a video game than in PnP. I just thought it was something to be considered.

[Mon-da-oth]

Some characters will still anounce that they will take guard while another character rests. I agree its not done often by others but I tried to make it a habit in Das 1 and I still try to do it now but one shouldn't expect Rhode to make a good watcher.

Whether you tighten the screw on one thing or loosen it on another the bottom line is something is getting screwed.

[ChikenKannon]

Eric the thing is. We want a reason that isn't "Because that's how it was in PnP". Yes Casters have less HP it's been shown they have the same ratio though. And it's been shown that Casters get to rest alot more in PnP DnD.

So we want a reason why this game, if it helps don't look at NWN2 as DnD for the computer and rather just as another game, should be changed so that everyone has lower HP.

[Tlantl]

Eric the thing is. We want a reason that isn't "Because that's how it was in PnP". Yes Casters have less HP it's been shown they have the same ratio though. And it's been shown that Casters get to rest alot more in PnP DnD.

So we want a reason why this game, if it helps don't look at NWN2 as DnD for the computer and rather just as another game, should be changed so that everyone has lower HP.

I think it's sad that some one playing a D&D game doesn't want it to be a D&D game. I'm sure there are other games out there where you can modify the game to add content that you can play on line. Some of us are fans of the real game and like to make it less like other games that challenge you not, with characters sporting thousands of hit points.

I'm sorry the real game of D&D doesn't do it for you. I think that erictheRed's point lends to game balance and increased tension as one strives to survive in a dangerous world. I don't think that all classes are created equal. Some are way more equal than others. Wizards of the coast tried to balance things the other way. Rather than change a broken treasure system they broke the spell system making things worse. Now your gear defines your character, rather than your ability to use your wits and work with your limitations. Anyone who can't play their wizards without resting between every fight, or fighter who can't adventure with a normal sword and armor after 2nd level are probably playing the wrong game, and are making things worse for those of us who can.

[Grayle]

Meh. Really presumptuous reply.

Agreeing or disagreeing with Eric's idea does not make anyone here a better or worse player.

[ChikenKannon]

I'm not saying that DnD is stupid (Well I kind of am. Seeing as how I don't really like the system). I'm just saying that it is extremely difficult to make this like PnP, there are things that really can't be simulated in a computer game. So it is better to make NWN2 into a good Online game based on DnD rather than a bad DnD game online.

I would be more inclined to agree with Eric if this was for a singleplayer game, because fights are over much too quick in multiplayer if you don't pay attention. Where as in Singleplayer and PnP you can think through every round and rounds in advance.

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I'm sure there are other games out there where you can modify the game to add content that you can play on line.

Please name one.

[Tlantl]

Dungeon siege II

[Delemont]

Some of us are fans of the real game and like to make it less like other games that challenge you not, with characters sporting thousands of hit points.

I'm sorry the real game of D&D doesn't do it for you.

Just curious what you consider to be the "real game of D&D".

Because there was once this combat simulation wargame called Chainmail which had no roleplaying at all and only used a 1d6 for all rolls.

Or maybe you meant you play the "real" D&D in real life, where you wear a cloak to school and say "Hail ye stranger" or when the bell rings, "I'll take the first watch"

[xAndersx]

Some of us are fans of the real game and like to make it less like other games that challenge you not, with characters sporting thousands of hit points.

I'm sorry the real game of D&D doesn't do it for you.

Just curious what you consider to be the "real game of D&D".

Because there was once this combat simulation wargame called Chainmail which had no roleplaying at all and only used a 1d6 for all rolls.

Or maybe you meant you play the "real" D&D in real life, where you wear a cloak to school and say "Hail ye stranger" or when the bell rings, "I'll take the first watch"

I think he means the pen and paper game Dungeons and Dragons?

[Tlantl]

"...Just curious what you consider to be the real game of D&D.

You don't really think NWNx is real D&D do you.

Smart remarks tend to make me think I struck a chord. Are we discussing the merits of the system or getting heated because there's something wrong with the image we see in our mirrors.

Seems that people forget that we speak about our thoughts and impressions when we post here. I don't know what you think until you speak. If you don't care for the rules a game is designed to use it seems to me you're going to take a little flak when you get huffy about a post discussing ones feeling on the subject.


I like the stuff the devs have done with this game. I also hate much of the crap we have to deal with to play it with half assed rule changes and the cop out that it's a video game, there's only so much you can do. I honestly believe that if given enough time and resources we could have had a really good Dungeons and Dragons simulation. (Actually we'd still be waiting for it, but in a lot of ways, we still are.)

[ChikenKannon]

I honestly believe that if given enough time and resources we could have had a really good Dungeons and Dragons simulation.

[muletang]

Back to the HP thing - my first lvl 20 character in Das1 was rolled with rubbish HP, not bacuse I'm the greatest (well I am, but lets leave that for a different thread ) but because I was ignorant of the fact that if you didn't get the top notch you could cancel and go again (yeah yeah it just didn't click alright).
So if the same system were in Das2 (nwn2) then sure everyone could get the randomness of HP possible, so a Wizard could roll a 1 everytime and a fighter 13 but people would just spend longer lvling up and repeating to get the best HP.
So a very difficult thing to address I'd imagine.

[Eowade]

I don't see it working very well for a computer based game. In PnP you might fight 5 to 10 things in a night where in a computer based version you fight 50 to 100.

[ChikenKannon]

I don't see it working very well for a computer based game. In PnP you might fight 5 to 10 things in a night where in a computer based version you fight 50 to 100.

THANK YOU! This is what I'm trying to say but because I suck at writing I failed to do so.

[k9burn]

I don't see it working very well for a computer based game. In PnP you might fight 5 to 10 things in a night where in a computer based version you fight 50 to 100.

Thats a sweeping generalization. It may apply to dasaria, but not 'computer based games' in general.