Suggestions

[Alterity]

I agree completely about the whole death system.. To me, being able to pop back into existence in an instant and be completely and fully regenerated--not to mention still powered up by your wards--is very difficult to roleplay. Death in any PW should always be seen as "Noooo, I don't want to die!" as opposed to "Oh well, I'll just farm the XP back." Death should certainly have the XP loss as it already does--and the gold loss is a bonus too!--but it should also be accompanied with some sort of way to prevent people from jumping directly back into the fray. Be it a temporary and unrestorable (playerwise) level drain that wears off over time, or just a severely lowered set of combat abilities.. anything that would prevent the suicidal adventurer from just going "Oh boy that did hurt lots! Weeee back into the fight!".

Why?

Maybe its just me, but I've always found the best way to RP is to RP, not stick stuff on your character to show that "this is how they're feeling". Death for me has, and always will be "Noooo, I don't want to die!" no matter what the penalties are, and that is in any game. Guild War's -10% to health/mana per death up to 60% was/is as much of a deterrence from death as Das' exp/gold, or Diablo 2's run out to get your body, or heck, even having to reload if your main char died in Baldur's gate.

I'm not seeing why you, or others, can't just discipline yourself to care about your characters enough without requiring everyone to suffer similar penalties and forcing your RP ideals on them. Actual forced "RP" penalties only deter people from playing proper RP builds, as they are required to make strong builds in order to not die a lot; Because so many people have strong builds that the builders have had to make a lot of areas unfair simply to make them a challenge. I know this well, because I play a -lot- or RP builds, mixtures of classes that really gimps the character to the point that they can just -barely- solo most fighting quests at the top of the level range. Why do I get punished for making a build that fits my character roleplaywise just because some people want to feel that hit when their characters die? Instead, if I have some down time I have a few choices: I can go RP with people (gain no exp), or I can go fight, if I am stuck soloing, I'm more likely to lose xp than gain any (or in a small group, if they can't protect my weaker character). If I don't gain enough exp then my allies level too far and thus to join my characters friends, I fight tougher foes and have more chance of losing exp, or as I've faced dozens of times -lose the friends to them getting to high level.

Again. Imposing even more penalties in a system that already works poorly is not going to help. It'll just decrease roleplay builds, decrease exploration(a lot of people only explore after banking all their gold and leveling, so they don't lose anything, which should say something...) and decrease fun for a lot of people and in turn continue to push Dasaria towards a mix-max dungeon crawl.

[hannahcoldkiller]

Almost six years into the game, we're very unlikely to change something like that. It serves its purpose and well, and while recognizing there are other options, we'd rather put our energy into building new dungeons, quests, providing new character options & customizations & etc than to revisit decisions like that.

Yeh, what Wired said. It's good to have an open forum for suggestions, but it's easy to forget that every suggestion you make requires someone to implement it. I'm don't know too much about the technical side of things, but I know it involves writing code, testing, troubleshooting, and lots of other rigga-muh-roll. Now, we've got some real wizards around here that have done some insanely amazing things with the place, who I think can pretty much do anything.

But you just got to ask yourself, "Is the hassle that it's going to take to make these changes worth it?" If the answer is yes, then think about what other awesome things that can be done with all the time it will take to implement a system that will make everyone's character thirsty and need to go to the bathroom. Think of all the quests that can be written. Maps built. Story lines created. Models built. Items created. Factions forms. Think of all the hours and hours of DM-participation.

A good example is this newspaper that's about now. It's cool, it lets people know what's going on IG in an IC kind of way, and it looks like the people who made it had fun doing it (as opposed to fiddling with code). It adds rather than takes away from people's enjoyment of the game.

Also, think about all the people you are going to irritate by making huge fundamental changes like tweaking the death system or some of these other things. I just like to get on, whack some monsters, maybe sing a little song about gnome gravy, and pester people with gnome ramblings. I'd like to see more suggestions that would make the game more FUN, and give people things to do.



* On a side note: The major problem I have with serious death penalties is that the Internet in all its awesomeness still sucks, especially in China. So one big lag bubble or a magic missile overload later and the character you've spent all this time building up and roleplaying with and leveling is now dead. *

[Daimondheart]

Well some players have a house too but think them cost alot so its not easy get? And some dwarf clan live in cave/hall too. But aye think there is not so many house free to buy and dont now how many is ready to pay 1 million to get house?

And suggestions is always okey, good & welcome but some thing can be harder to change?

The Stormbeard clan has faction housing, which is different from player housing. DH means to extend the player housing to include other habitats, housing beyond those limited by walls and doors... Or atleast city boundaries.

The lack of walls and doors might present a bit of a challange though, at least for forest type ones, where does your house 'end' and other ones 'begin'? I suppose you could probably have trees signify the end of the house, or they could play a little more for a log cabin.

I personally would like this, I have a couple chars that have made nests for themselves outside of the cities. Although, perhaps the houses would be significantly cheaper than regular housing, to represent that you're not paying inflated city prices

If cheaper, maybe wild animals sneak in

Alterity and Cats hit the nail right on the head. As for the limits of the home, it would depend on the chosen layout. I was thinking something like a simple exterior area like a glade in the middle of forest surrounded by trees with the exit at the southern part of the map. Then in the center of the map would be the tent, cabin, cave entrance etc. with a way point to the interior. Players would be free to place items in the exterior or interior areas.

As for costs being cheaper than what people pay to live in the cities, again, the amount of gold taken should also reflect the time and effort it would take to create such a home. As stated, it's outside the safe boundaries of the city, thus the character would have to take extra effort to protect his/her home, fend for themselves, etc. While ICly they would spend less than other characters since they wouldn't have to pay for taxes and the like, but OOCly it should be about the same to reflect the greater difficulty of establishing a home in the wilds.

The gold you spend as a player would be mostly symbolic of all the work your character did to build and maintain their home.

[Ve'keer]

Regarding the housing.

In response to the outdoor housing idea, why not just put it as a spawnpoint like at the Misty, RW, Lendose, etc. Instead of having to 'Buy' your own peice of land to pitch a tent on, you could talk to like, a rock or whatever, and get that place as a spawnpoint. If you wanted a 'house' in the wild, just go to one of the areas already existing in the module and rp there. If you take some time and explore, there are plenty of places with tents around the module. It would take a lot more work from Builders to create a housing system that works outdoors, and then you'd run into the transitions to the area. Would anyone who happens to walk up to your camp be able to walk in? Probably. You'd have to get your own transition to wherever your outdoor house is. In which case, it would only make sense other people could come in and use your 'house'. So maybe the idea of central camps are a better direction to head in. Known places where people can spawn from.

Back to the idea of 'buying' your spot of land. This doesn't make much sense to me. I don't really think there are pieces of land for sale, so to speak. Instead you just have empty territories. Not to completely shoot down your idea, which I do think would be cool DH and QFC, but I would rather see other things implemented into the module (Cuhanna, mostly.) over more 'houses'/outdoor camps.

Regarding death/respawn.

The system works fine. It's worked fine. You have to use a bit of brainpower, but not a lot. The common way I think to do it, if you're rping, is just to hit the respawn button whilst in a group, run back to the group, and pick up the rp from there. Or, do the rp while you are 'dead/dying' and after they heal you, patch you up or whatever, you respawn and run back. The system works fine if you think a bit, instead of begging the builders to make it easier for you; which they already have. Bandages have been made to do a respawn. The only thing to be fixed, is for the bandages to not have a gold penalty. Carry around bandages, or rp that you have them, when really you don't. It's very simple to rp that you were bandaged up, respawn at 1 hp and get healed up, or take a short break (rest) and tend to your wounds.

When you're soloing, respawns are less than important. You're worrying about getting to the end of the dungeon and completing the quest. Most likely, you don't rp very much while you're soloing, but maybe talk about it after you finish the quest and make it back to the tavern, where you meet a party and tell them the tale of how you killed the biggest Kaolisk you've ever seen, whatever it is.

I do however, like the idea of being able to respawn somewhere else. But only if it makes rp sense. Not like respawn at the graveyard in North Cear from the Bugbear cave. Like respawn in the Temple of Culnul, or the Temple of Peralia. Maybe the Temple of Brintha if you're a dwarf, or died underground. Other than that, I don't think being able to respawn in other places makes much sense.

The server has made it along well so far with this system in place, and Bandages have pretty much made it flawless, as long as you're willing to think a bit.

Regarding Combat expertise/Improved Combat expertise

Too many people already have the feat to change it. What, now my character can't use that special stance he was taught to use by whoever because it's 'overpowering'. I do however, not think that casters should be able to use it. The description says, "A character with this feat can make defensive attacks". Which casting a spell is not. Waving your hands around and chanting kind of disrupts the "defensive attacks" you would be making. But what if the spell you cast is stilled? That makes sense to be able to use Combat expertise with.

I don't think the feats should be changed, unless it's made to deal with casting, because otherwise, there is not a good argument as to why ICly you wouldn't be able to use it.

Besides, talking about overpowered feats, go look at HIPS and the 1 level of shadowdancer dipping.

My suggestion.

Based on the players I've gotten to try Das and their responses, they want more customization when it comes to what your character is wearing. Everything else they have had no problem with.


I'll let my rant die down and hopefully have changed some minds. Assuming a few people took the time to read through it. I would actually enjoy a few tl;dr responses.

[Daimondheart]

Regarding the housing.

In response to the outdoor housing idea, why not just put it as a spawnpoint like at the Misty, RW, Lendose, etc. Instead of having to 'Buy' your own peice of land to pitch a tent on, you could talk to like, a rock or whatever, and get that place as a spawnpoint. If you wanted a 'house' in the wild, just go to one of the areas already existing in the module and rp there. If you take some time and explore, there are plenty of places with tents around the module. It would take a lot more work from Builders to create a housing system that works outdoors, and then you'd run into the transitions to the area. Would anyone who happens to walk up to your camp be able to walk in? Probably. You'd have to get your own transition to wherever your outdoor house is. In which case, it would only make sense other people could come in and use your 'house'. So maybe the idea of central camps are a better direction to head in. Known places where people can spawn from.

Back to the idea of 'buying' your spot of land. This doesn't make much sense to me. I don't really think there are pieces of land for sale, so to speak. Instead you just have empty territories. Not to completely shoot down your idea, which I do think would be cool DH and QFC, but I would rather see other things implemented into the module (Cuhanna, mostly.) over more 'houses'/outdoor camps.

Well the idea is so nomad/nature based characters would have a home suiting to their background that can be customized much like the current in-city homes. Yes, we could just RP a certain spot of land as our home, but then we can't really give it our own personal look. As for the buying thing, again, it's not a literal purchasing of land. The gold you would spend merely reflects the time and effort your character puts into finding and establishing their home.

[Alterity]

Regarding the housing.

In response to the outdoor housing idea, why not just put it as a spawnpoint like at the Misty, RW, Lendose, etc. Instead of having to 'Buy' your own peice of land to pitch a tent on, you could talk to like, a rock or whatever, and get that place as a spawnpoint. If you wanted a 'house' in the wild, just go to one of the areas already existing in the module and rp there. If you take some time and explore, there are plenty of places with tents around the module. It would take a lot more work from Builders to create a housing system that works outdoors, and then you'd run into the transitions to the area. Would anyone who happens to walk up to your camp be able to walk in? Probably. You'd have to get your own transition to wherever your outdoor house is. In which case, it would only make sense other people could come in and use your 'house'. So maybe the idea of central camps are a better direction to head in. Known places where people can spawn from.

Back to the idea of 'buying' your spot of land. This doesn't make much sense to me. I don't really think there are pieces of land for sale, so to speak. Instead you just have empty territories. Not to completely shoot down your idea, which I do think would be cool DH and QFC, but I would rather see other things implemented into the module (Cuhanna, mostly.) over more 'houses'/outdoor camps.

Well the idea is so nomad/nature based characters would have a home suiting to their background that can be customized much like the current in-city homes. Yes, we could just RP a certain spot of land as our home, but then we can't really give it our own personal look. As for the buying thing, again, it's not a literal purchasing of land. The gold you would spend merely reflects the time and effort your character puts into finding and establishing their home.

Not jut nomad/nature based chars, but some people might just want a summer cottage away from the city!

You could actually make this housing system quite a bit more based off your char, make it more interesting too... You could choose what kind of 'housing' you want, and if you want say... A log cabin, well maybe the cost is lowered if you have higher strength. Or maybe the cost is lower for a more 'camp' like home if you have high survival.

Would also prove interesting if you could get people's help (which would let a faction chip in to find/build a remote hideout, let all those thralls chop down the trees!). It would make sense for, especially outdoors ones, to have the ability for people to 'just walk into' them, after someone has shown them it. This would let people share a camp, and make for good brigand hideaways

[Ve'keer]

Well the idea is so nomad/nature based characters would have a home suiting to their background that can be customized much like the current in-city homes. Yes, we could just RP a certain spot of land as our home, but then we can't really give it our own personal look. As for the buying thing, again, it's not a literal purchasing of land. The gold you would spend merely reflects the time and effort your character puts into finding and establishing their home.

First thought, is nomads wouldn't have a dedicated home, instead just wandering, pitching their tent and campfire and staying the night. Druids on the other hand could indeed enjoy the idea of having a nature based home. But I don't like the idea of using gold to reflect the time and effort put into you character finding a home. If it were to be implemented into the game, I would suggest using your survival skill to see what kind of a home you could find in the wilds. A ranger with a 40 some survival could probably live in the trees, whilst a fighter with a -1 survival, will be forced to pitch his tent next to the highway.

Using gold doesn't seem like a practical rp reason or a very sturdy thing to represent time and effort. As for giving it your own personal look, you could. You would have to carry around all the items in your backpack that were in your home, which yes, would be a pain, and having your own temporary home would be able to solve that problem. I don't see near as many people using it as people using the housing system already in the game.

And someone brought up the idea of animals attacking your home or bandits attacking your home while your gone. This would be cool the first couple times it happened, but if you've had your home for a year, and have had to defend it from attackers hundreds of times it would become a nuisance. The idea is a good one, but I don't think it's thought out

As for what Alterity wrote about having a summer log cabin out in the woods This should also depend on your survival skill. I don't think a noble who goes to see the Queen for brunch will fare well in the wilds, what if she is attacked? She'll die. Now, the brigand hideaway could in fact be useful. But then we're getting to the point of, why not just add in a couple cabins out in the woods, to act like traveler's rest stops. But now it doesn't make much sense for someone to want to customize their rest stop. For the next person who comes by could very well just steal whatever the person laid out, or not like their taste.

It's a tricky subject that's rough around the edges, but I think we're getting somewhere with it.

[Daimondheart]

Not really. You're just over thinking it a bit. It's up to the player to decide whether or not their character should have a home and where. And as for the nomads wandering, the outdoor homes don't necessarily mean it's a fixed location in the wild. The tent home could simply represent the common set up the character makes when they do pitch their tent. It doesn't mean it has to be the exact same location in the world. That's why I suggested tents and caravans in the first place.

And the wild creature's attack isn't something that has to be implemented. That was another person's idea, though I do indeed like it. The purpose of the exterior homes is what I've said from the beginning: to give nature/nomad based characters a place they can customize to their taste. It's very simple and doesn't need any of the added complications that has been listed.

Edit: Or yeah, like Alterity suggested, a summer home for normal city dwellers. I definitely like the secret hideout idea, though that's something that should be built up upon the basic exterior housing. Don't want to overload the builders and scripters.

[Ve'keer]

Hardly over thinking it, more so trying to pick out the problems with it, and add constructive criticism. If the builders do take this suggestion and implement it into the game, I'd want it to make sense, have as few flaws as possible, and not be a stretch to think about realistically, which is why we are discussing it.

Every complication I've listed have been things that I think might happen realistically. Nothing that would need to be done, but things to think about and add on to or toss out because they don't make sense/would be hard to implement.

Having the tent setup be a template that is used every time a character pitches their tent would mean giving that player a specific usable when they do pitch their tent, wouldn't it?

[Daimondheart]

I can see the notion of striving for a sense of realism; however, when it all comes down to it, Dasaria is, like all other PWs, a "fantasy" world for NWN2 players to enjoy. Many of the problems you've ticked off about this idea could be said about the current housing system in the city. For example, Cear is home to a underground network of thieves, so does that mean all homes need to have random thief intrusions now? I can go on but it's not really necessary. The point is that, like all games, Dasaria was designed to be fun. I'm confident that if the staff choose to implement this, they will do it in a fashion that will achieve just that.

As for the tent thing, you seem to be missing what I had in mind. You go to the object that brings up the exterior housing menu (much like the sign in Cear for interior homes) such as a rock or something out on one of the roads, you choose to enter your home, and there you are. And like the current housing system, players can interact with the rock and ask to be invited into the character's exterior home. I never said anything about carrying a tent around in your character's inventory.

[Alterity]

Although it -would- be cool if tents could have little interiors; Even if they would -hardly- be big enough to put anything in, IF the builders/DMs choose to save the info.

But I do think we have a gem here for what can be 'affordable' player housing. But not just that it'd be affordable (and thus make 'real' player housing seem extra cool because they can 'afford' the top end stuff, just like how the Empress Court looks a lot cooler than TnC houses), but it could be based off a character or group of characters instead of a wallet. The 'hideaway' idea that Ve'keer liked could be 'linked' to all the rest of the scripts.

As for what Alterity wrote about having a summer log cabin out in the woods This should also depend on your survival skill. I don't think a noble who goes to see the Queen for brunch will fare well in the wilds, what if she is attacked? She'll die. Now, the brigand hideaway could in fact be useful. But then we're getting to the point of, why not just add in a couple cabins out in the woods, to act like traveler's rest stops. But now it doesn't make much sense for someone to want to customize their rest stop. For the next person who comes by could very well just steal whatever the person laid out, or not like their taste.

Agreed, a noble who goes to the Queen for Brunch would fare poorly; However (s)he could hire a tracker to find a nice place for her, pay them IC some gold and use THEIR survival skill to locate a safe, nice location for a summer log cabin.

Thieves and vagabonds could group together and use their highest survival skill to find a good place... Regular travellers could just roll survival at the time.

One could even break it up into Temporary and Permanent houses, with the Temporary allowing you to 'move' it around, and having a few 'base' templates (as long as they're the same size area templates, one should be able to fill it up to look the same. But this would just be an added benefit, allowing you to 'pitch tent' among various areas.

Making skill based housing would be really interesting and really showcase the flexibility of the housing and add a lot of RP elements... Some skills that could be considered:

Survival: Finding a 'good location'. But what is in a good location? Well being safe from monsters is a good start. This could also play a factor in how easy it is to get to the home; How perhaps you are getting to it.
Search: To avoid pitfalls getting to the location? Bear traps, and the like
Hide/Movesilently: To avoid unsafe factors.
You could represent the 'wild' by having a formula like:
(40-finder's survival) damage - survival
(random(0,10)-8) *30 - search*3
30-(hide+movesilently)/2.

All of which round up to positive numbers. Then you'd represent taking damage from the wild, but taking less based at how well you move through nature, then a random chance to step in some sort of trap which you have a much lower chance of doing with a good amount of search, and lastly avoiding hostile animals by the average of your hide/movesilently. You could let this damage get divided out among all members, use the parties highest search/survival, and lowest hide/MS.

Then for actually finding it, Survival for lowering the above highest party survival for the above survival damage, collective party strength and highest appraise or highest survival for collective building costs (or actual buildings), you need someone to build it and have to hire out if you don't have high strength, and you can either find trees to cut with survival or buy them with appraise. As for finding just a camp ground, just survival would work.

I would think it would be awesome to implement a 'you brought me to this house/camp ground, now I can find it again', maybe have it be a survival check based off the finders survival.