Invisible characters grabbing chests
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LethalBlade
- Commoner
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 5:32 pm
I vote to limit the amount of chests in game. The majority of loot should be dropped by encounters.
For the few chests that remain in game, lock them all. Depending on the difficulty of the area, make the DC of the locked chest equal to the difficulty of the area.
(IE: The bugbear caves have a few chests that require a 7th lvl character with maxed lock pick skill to open. Of course, you can always add higher DC's for better treasure.)
-The other option is to have keys for the treasure chest. The key is dropped by one of the monsters in that room.
-Either way the treasure is only attainable by someone with a vested skill, or gained as a reward for defeating an enemy.
Lastly, I would start trapping chests. Traps that fire dispells, invisibility purges, or traps that alert the room causing someone to cast a see invis spell. (In DAS 1 this was a common occurance in the V-caves.)
Also, Negative traps and holy traps bypass most magical protections.
For the few chests that remain in game, lock them all. Depending on the difficulty of the area, make the DC of the locked chest equal to the difficulty of the area.
(IE: The bugbear caves have a few chests that require a 7th lvl character with maxed lock pick skill to open. Of course, you can always add higher DC's for better treasure.)
-The other option is to have keys for the treasure chest. The key is dropped by one of the monsters in that room.
-Either way the treasure is only attainable by someone with a vested skill, or gained as a reward for defeating an enemy.
Lastly, I would start trapping chests. Traps that fire dispells, invisibility purges, or traps that alert the room causing someone to cast a see invis spell. (In DAS 1 this was a common occurance in the V-caves.)
Also, Negative traps and holy traps bypass most magical protections.
Something that is a great way to deal with spells that cause balence issues but should not be taken out is spell components. This is something that NWN does not require but to be a bit more true to PnP some spells such as stone skin should not be thrown around without a cost. This could be done to spells like Invis and such to make there at least be a cost to using it just for a loot run. This is still not going to fix the heart of the problem though. I think pickpocketable keys will be one of the best things that could be done.
There is certainly nothing wrong with upping the fraction of the loot that is dropped by monsters. This is allready on the table for the next treasure upgrade. But removing the chests would be a mistake.
Area traps get tripped or removed quickly and don't respawn. Additionally, we try not to make quests un-complete-able to parties without rogues by having doors that must be picked.
Chests are one of the few things we have to work with that allow a rogue to open locks and disarm traps.
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The real problem here is not so much the chests, but contention for limited resources. There are a limited number of areas and chests and everyone feels they are entitled to them. Other people getting "their" stuff is what they are really complaining about. People go there and farm because thats where the rewards are. And everyone thinks that it is theirs by natural right.
Moving things to monsters will slow things down a little, but it will also increase contention for encounters. So, instead of fighting over chests you will fight over encounters; the consequence being that now not only are they "stealing" your loot, they are "stealing" your XP as well.
Anyone who has played a mmorpg on opening day should be well familiar with spawn camping: That other group is going to steal "our" kill. Hurry, lock the encounter before they do. Who was here 1st again? Doesn't matter!
The only really viable solutions have to reduce contention, either by expanding the number of areas, expiring the rewards, locking the areas to one group at a time, or perhaps some other method I don't know yet.
But as long as there is contention, other people will be "stealing" your stuff. It really is that simple.
Area traps get tripped or removed quickly and don't respawn. Additionally, we try not to make quests un-complete-able to parties without rogues by having doors that must be picked.
Chests are one of the few things we have to work with that allow a rogue to open locks and disarm traps.
------------------------------------
The real problem here is not so much the chests, but contention for limited resources. There are a limited number of areas and chests and everyone feels they are entitled to them. Other people getting "their" stuff is what they are really complaining about. People go there and farm because thats where the rewards are. And everyone thinks that it is theirs by natural right.
Moving things to monsters will slow things down a little, but it will also increase contention for encounters. So, instead of fighting over chests you will fight over encounters; the consequence being that now not only are they "stealing" your loot, they are "stealing" your XP as well.
Anyone who has played a mmorpg on opening day should be well familiar with spawn camping: That other group is going to steal "our" kill. Hurry, lock the encounter before they do. Who was here 1st again? Doesn't matter!
The only really viable solutions have to reduce contention, either by expanding the number of areas, expiring the rewards, locking the areas to one group at a time, or perhaps some other method I don't know yet.
But as long as there is contention, other people will be "stealing" your stuff. It really is that simple.
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jawsofhana
- Dasarian
- Posts: 128
- Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2006 5:07 pm
Making loot only drop from monsters is not the best idea.
Frankly, I do not see the big problem with this. It does not bother me if another person has more gold and items than I have, unless he steals the stuff from under my nose, I could not care less.
It's good that it is possible to use invisibility/sneak skills to avoid fighting. You do not get any experience, and this is a punishment in itself.
In the pen & paper game our DM would give us xp for sneaking/talking your way past monsters. Often more than we would get from going in Conan style.
But sadly, this is not P&P and I understand that.
The problem with limiting one class' ability is to balance it with the others. A warrior will hack his way past a group of monsters quite easily. A mage as well, but only at higher levels (he needs to have the opening attack). The rogue will only be able to do that if there is a way to hide along the way (or once he has HiPS).
The suggestions I have liked so far is the one about pickpocketable keys/ trapped and locked chests. Afterall, every locked thing in the game should actually have a key attached to it somewhere.
This will still allow the mages to bypass monsters with the use of invisibility, but since mages are usually not very sneaky, they still make sound and might get spotted when attempting to interact with the environment. (activating a noisetrap for instance)
The warriors can still use their bash-all tactic to kill the beast with the key, grab it and get the goodies. Since everything is dead anyway, he can afford to trigger the noisetraps.
The rogues can either remove the traps and use a lockpick to open the chest, or pickpocket the key from the large fellow guarding it.
Everyone should be happy, maybe except the mages, but they will still have the upper hand in a battle, and still be able to make use of their invisibility spell.
Frankly, I do not see the big problem with this. It does not bother me if another person has more gold and items than I have, unless he steals the stuff from under my nose, I could not care less.
It's good that it is possible to use invisibility/sneak skills to avoid fighting. You do not get any experience, and this is a punishment in itself.
In the pen & paper game our DM would give us xp for sneaking/talking your way past monsters. Often more than we would get from going in Conan style.
But sadly, this is not P&P and I understand that.
The problem with limiting one class' ability is to balance it with the others. A warrior will hack his way past a group of monsters quite easily. A mage as well, but only at higher levels (he needs to have the opening attack). The rogue will only be able to do that if there is a way to hide along the way (or once he has HiPS).
The suggestions I have liked so far is the one about pickpocketable keys/ trapped and locked chests. Afterall, every locked thing in the game should actually have a key attached to it somewhere.
This will still allow the mages to bypass monsters with the use of invisibility, but since mages are usually not very sneaky, they still make sound and might get spotted when attempting to interact with the environment. (activating a noisetrap for instance)
The warriors can still use their bash-all tactic to kill the beast with the key, grab it and get the goodies. Since everything is dead anyway, he can afford to trigger the noisetraps.
The rogues can either remove the traps and use a lockpick to open the chest, or pickpocket the key from the large fellow guarding it.
Everyone should be happy, maybe except the mages, but they will still have the upper hand in a battle, and still be able to make use of their invisibility spell.
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MakoKramill
- Commoner
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2006 12:17 am
Here's the thing
This is going to happen no matter what is done. People find a way. I played on alot of NWN1 servers, and on each there are those, "powergamers" if you try to fix everything based on what they do, you will ruin it for those who like to play for the Roleplay or just the fun.
Example, one server I was on the Powergamer was a Sorcer, They would burn thier spells, then log out before dying, won't tell the rest asn don't want others to do it here. in so doin out lvled averyone and killed anything that came at them, made the XP curve for every other player so low that noone could catch them, or hope to lvl much themselves.
The only way to stop this, is to ID the players that are abusing the system, and ban them, it is the only fair fix to all players.
I love to play Wizardly types, but with no Ivis, I could die a whole lot, and I don't wanna multiclass to rogue just to open chests, I generally have to Solo mostly due to times I can play and the need to leave suddenly, one year old at home will do that to ya. I also don't want to neccisarly have to fight everything i see just to make a few coins.
One solution I didn't see mentioned is put a timer on the dungeons, I am pretty sure this should be doable, I am not a scripter so don't ask me, but I know i saw it in several NWN1 pws,
There my 2 copper, take it or leave it.
Example, one server I was on the Powergamer was a Sorcer, They would burn thier spells, then log out before dying, won't tell the rest asn don't want others to do it here. in so doin out lvled averyone and killed anything that came at them, made the XP curve for every other player so low that noone could catch them, or hope to lvl much themselves.
The only way to stop this, is to ID the players that are abusing the system, and ban them, it is the only fair fix to all players.
I love to play Wizardly types, but with no Ivis, I could die a whole lot, and I don't wanna multiclass to rogue just to open chests, I generally have to Solo mostly due to times I can play and the need to leave suddenly, one year old at home will do that to ya. I also don't want to neccisarly have to fight everything i see just to make a few coins.
One solution I didn't see mentioned is put a timer on the dungeons, I am pretty sure this should be doable, I am not a scripter so don't ask me, but I know i saw it in several NWN1 pws,
There my 2 copper, take it or leave it.
Kill everyone. 
A tad harsh but never fails to solve all the problems.
Locked doors that can be bashed open - place monsters very close to the other side? That way any inv mage will have to fight a few selection of monsters + any non rouges or parties without rouges won't be hindered by the doors as they can bash 'em down.. guess they would need to respawn now and again if that's possible..
A tad harsh but never fails to solve all the problems.
Locked doors that can be bashed open - place monsters very close to the other side? That way any inv mage will have to fight a few selection of monsters + any non rouges or parties without rouges won't be hindered by the doors as they can bash 'em down.. guess they would need to respawn now and again if that's possible..
I think that summed it up very well, J4.Jay Four wrote:There is certainly nothing wrong with upping the fraction of the loot that is dropped by monsters. This is allready on the table for the next treasure upgrade. But removing the chests would be a mistake.
Area traps get tripped or removed quickly and don't respawn. Additionally, we try not to make quests un-complete-able to parties without rogues by having doors that must be picked.
Chests are one of the few things we have to work with that allow a rogue to open locks and disarm traps.
------------------------------------
The real problem here is not so much the chests, but contention for limited resources. There are a limited number of areas and chests and everyone feels they are entitled to them. Other people getting "their" stuff is what they are really complaining about. People go there and farm because thats where the rewards are. And everyone thinks that it is theirs by natural right.
Moving things to monsters will slow things down a little, but it will also increase contention for encounters. So, instead of fighting over chests you will fight over encounters; the consequence being that now not only are they "stealing" your loot, they are "stealing" your XP as well.
Anyone who has played a mmorpg on opening day should be well familiar with spawn camping: That other group is going to steal "our" kill. Hurry, lock the encounter before they do. Who was here 1st again? Doesn't matter!
The only really viable solutions have to reduce contention, either by expanding the number of areas, expiring the rewards, locking the areas to one group at a time, or perhaps some other method I don't know yet.
But as long as there is contention, other people will be "stealing" your stuff. It really is that simple.
And at this point in the game, I really don't have an issue with the current level of characters using stealth/invis to get at some loot. I am sure that as the levels get higher, invis/stealth will begin to serve those that use them far less and they will have to begin using a more varied repertoire of skills/abilities.
***WARNING*** Minor spoiler in text below.
I do see Isis point and would suggest one change if possible. I noticed after getting several in my inventory that some plot items stay in your inventory until you trash them if you even can (I think some tell me that I cannot sell/drop/trash a plot item). In the case related to Isis's Bugbear caves point, there are some keys that are plot items that you need to defeat a more difficult foe in order to acquire them. These keys are required for access to areas not only to better treasure, but also to quest goals. Currently, aquiring these keys once allows the repetitive easy access to to both better treasure and quest xp. My suggestion is to add a script (say at the entrance to the caves) that removes all keys on entrance or exit from the caves. This would restore the quest/area design integrity and minimizes the advantage of stealth/invis without removing it game play. I used similar scripts in NWN1 for the very same reasons and they worked effectively for me.
-Gnat
I feel more like I do now than when I first got here....
D'workin D'Vir
To'van D'Vir
Dro'mar D'Vir
D'workin D'Vir
To'van D'Vir
Dro'mar D'Vir
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tombstoneblues1
- Commoner
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 1:57 am
Invisible characters grabbing chests
Normally when the DM's fix a problem it works out pretty well, but when you combat invisible mages grabbing chests by putting in "cearian weapon racks" that have death traps on them you end up killing lots of innocent people, especially when the traps are hard to see
*by the way this hasn't stopped anything, they just learn to work around it - and it isnt very good advice to say just PvP them because they move so quickly through that you barely see them, theyre already gone*
*by the way this hasn't stopped anything, they just learn to work around it - and it isnt very good advice to say just PvP them because they move so quickly through that you barely see them, theyre already gone*