Legendary Gear: Post-20 questing, ECL solution all-in-one

[BeyondRedemption]

No. Those that would choose deep gnome in the first place are those that don't mind the grind and in fact live for it to become the UBERMASTER. Screw them.

[Cain]

Bah, too weak, too powerful... nonsense. I play a Drow rogue The only way I could be "too powerful" is if I achieved level 40. Why do I play a rogue? Because I find it fun, and it adds lots of cool RP elements (especially as a Drow on the surface).

If some 'tard wants to powergame so he's got tha l33test PC on tha whole interweb, good for him. I don't care. He'll get bored and go away when he can't do anything to improve his l33tness. I'll stick around as long as the RP is good, and I can still quest a few times. That's how you balance it. Let the retarded powergamers get bored and go away.

[Deodeath]

The Rouge isn't weak... when you sneak attack you put out some heavy Damage per round. But I like that, keep saying Rouges are weak maybe poeple will ignore them more and let them just sneak attack away

It's just more of a support class than a in-your-face type of class. Really though ECL classes don't seem like that big of a deal to me, humans are a pretty dominant race in my opinion when it comes down to bonuses... especially for certain classes.

[The_Four_Horsemen]

No. Those that would choose deep gnome in the first place are those that don't mind the grind and in fact live for it to become the UBERMASTER. Screw them.

That seems like an unfounded statement to me. How about they choose deep gnome because its new not just the same old same old. If YOU wouldn't play a deep gnome because of the grind that doesn't mean someone who does is a UBERMASTER turd.

I would like to ask why you think the ECL shouldn't be allowed to reach 20, and how that will negatively affect yours and others gaming experience if they do?

[UltimaBoB]

Planning a server based on everyone being an RP angel and even the angels ALWAYS being angels and never succumbing to their powergaming sides is IMO doomed to failure.

NWN2 is a CRPG. Dismissing the Hack and Slash elements, fighting spaws, or the importantce of balancing won't make those problems go away. Quite the opposite.

IMO gear is a nice way to balance the ECL races at 20. Level 20s need to still have an investment in gaining xp and gp - but one that doesn't yield increasing power to the same extent it did when they leveled.

These are *specific* issues that I welcome a concrete discussion on. Getting on the RP soapbox and proudly baring your "I played a level 20 half-orc pure rogue with bad Dex because it was FUN" RP hairshirt for all to see doesn;t really address these issues. Not everyone is you. You can't plan a server for that. But if you intend to balance out ECL via top end gear availability then you have to decide right away, even if there are no 20s or top end gear, in order to influence race selection among level 1s.

[Ludovic]

Most successful servers I have been on in NWN1 added some feature that made adventuring necessary even at the level cap. Here, I think we can also solved ECL all at the same time.

To me it is pretty simple. Capping ECL races at 17, 18 and 19 levels is TOO much of a hit. No one would play them if we are talking from a power/min-max pov.

Wait, you mean people don't play these races for the RP aspect of it? I never thought of that, it's all so clear now.

Honestly, in 99.9999999678% of the cases, people will pick these races precisely because of the strengths in terms of mechanics rather than for RP strengths. They should be rare anyway, not form the majority of the server's population.

Regardless of what that poll says, that's the population among those who generally care about the world they're playing in and are more or less converted. Generally, on the forums we're pretty much preaching to the choir.

I really don't see an issue with capping ECL races.

OTOH if you let them be able to grind out level 20 everyone would play them from a min-max PoV.

What you need is a creative, RP-based alternative solution that also balances things in the min-max way.

Yes, capping ECL races.

I suggest that you allow level 20 for all races.

Worst idea since I mixed single malt whiskey with vodka and warm milk. And syrup.

BUT you then allow level 20s to quest for special, custom gear. However, ECL races become more limited in either the quality or the amount of unique gear they can quest for.

Oh god, wait, this is the worst idea since I mixed single malt whiskey with vodka and warm milk. And syrup. It won't be too long before everyone is running around with awesome-gear-of-slaying-painful-rape-of-deadly-death™. Until then, everyone will be grinding like crazy to get said gear. After that, we'll all realize how naïve we've been and have an item wipe (in the best scenario).

Many fictional characters had certain trademark items etc... And post-20 XP and GP turning in for other effects also really gives a person a reason to keep and continue to play a level 20 beyond just sitting him in town and using him as a foil for lower level RPs.

I think you have no idea what you're talking about here, but that's my opinion, and I have one just as you do.

The life of a character doesn't end when you hit level 20, there are many things to do, but most of those will revolve around RP. If that's not your bag, then simply roll another one and start grindin' son.

[ormane]

It would be nice to hear a decent counter argument to the OP in place of the insults that are thrown his/her way.

If, ultimately, what he's suggesting is not in the spirit of what is wanted for the server, so be it. There's no reason to be so arrogant about it, especially considering he's not just doing this to see his pretty scribbles. He's trying to contribute to the server.

[UltimaBoB]

I see no need to go ad hominem. But whatever, being thinskinned is not one of my many problems.

Dealing in extremes is not useful. I am not talking about grinding. People invest in a character and its RP and they like to play it. Mostly they RP but the dungeons and and spwans and non-DM run fights are also part of the fun of a CRPG. Why deny that? Over time your character will hit 20 usually - grinding or no grinding.

When you hit 20 that part of the game that I mentioned: spawns, non-DM run fights, etc... shouldn't cease to be meaningful in terms of mehchanics. There is no reason that they need to be. And teh server is better when they aren't. None of this requires allowing people to grind into uber leet gods.

[BeyondRedemption]

Will people give the DMs a freaking chance to implement things before they start offering their brilliant ideas that will save the server from imminent doom?

[ormane]

Will people give the DMs a freaking chance to implement things before they start offering their brilliant ideas that will save the server from imminent doom?

Some people might intend to put pressure on the DM's by offering critique or suggestions. I would say those people are probably a little misguided and certainly delusional.

I'm guessing by the largely positive experience people had with Dasaria 1 and are having with 2 (as well as the objective quality of the module! ) that the DM's are quite capable of taking criticism/suggestions while in development and use that input and their own creativity to create a great product. While, of course, paying attention to ye ole adage: ya can't please everyone all the time.

[BeyondRedemption]

Will people give the DMs a freaking chance to implement things before they start offering their brilliant ideas that will save the server from imminent doom?

Some people might intend to put pressure on the DM's by offering critique or suggestions. I would say those people are probably a little misguided and certainly delusional.

I'm guessing by the largely positive experience people had with Dasaria 1 and are having with 2 (as well as the objective quality of the module! ) that the DM's are quite capable of taking criticism/suggestions while in development and use that input and their own creativity to create a great product. While, of course, paying attention to ye ole adage: ya can't please everyone all the time.

They certainly are an awesome crew. These "I want teh uber loot" threads just get a bit tiresome.

[BeyondRedemption]

No. Those that would choose deep gnome in the first place are those that don't mind the grind and in fact live for it to become the UBERMASTER. Screw them.

That seems like an unfounded statement to me. How about they choose deep gnome because its new not just the same old same old. If YOU wouldn't play a deep gnome because of the grind that doesn't mean someone who does is a UBERMASTER turd.

I would like to ask why you think the ECL shouldn't be allowed to reach 20, and how that will negatively affect yours and others gaming experience if they do?

They shouldn't reach 20 because taking a little longer to reach that level is not payment enough for the power that they will have over others. Hell, there are plenty of ECL races now with levels that are on par with the rest of the powergamers on the server. Extra grind should not grant you superpowers.

[KoolestLoser]

Most successful servers I have been on in NWN1 added some feature that made adventuring necessary even at the level cap. Here, I think we can also solved ECL all at the same time.

To me it is pretty simple. Capping ECL races at 17, 18 and 19 levels is TOO much of a hit. No one would play them if we are talking from a power/min-max pov.

Wait, you mean people don't play these races for the RP aspect of it? I never thought of that, it's all so clear now.

Honestly, in 99.9999999678% of the cases, people will pick these races precisely because of the strengths in terms of mechanics rather than for RP strengths. They should be rare anyway, not form the majority of the server's population.

Regardless of what that poll says, that's the population among those who generally care about the world they're playing in and are more or less converted. Generally, on the forums we're pretty much preaching to the choir.

I really don't see an issue with capping ECL races.

OTOH if you let them be able to grind out level 20 everyone would play them from a min-max PoV.

What you need is a creative, RP-based alternative solution that also balances things in the min-max way.

Yes, capping ECL races.

I suggest that you allow level 20 for all races.

Worst idea since I mixed single malt whiskey with vodka and warm milk. And syrup.

BUT you then allow level 20s to quest for special, custom gear. However, ECL races become more limited in either the quality or the amount of unique gear they can quest for.

Oh god, wait, this is the worst idea since I mixed single malt whiskey with vodka and warm milk. And syrup. It won't be too long before everyone is running around with awesome-gear-of-slaying-painful-rape-of-deadly-death™. Until then, everyone will be grinding like crazy to get said gear. After that, we'll all realize how naïve we've been and have an item wipe (in the best scenario).

Many fictional characters had certain trademark items etc... And post-20 XP and GP turning in for other effects also really gives a person a reason to keep and continue to play a level 20 beyond just sitting him in town and using him as a foil for lower level RPs.

I think you have no idea what you're talking about here, but that's my opinion, and I have one just as you do.

The life of a character doesn't end when you hit level 20, there are many things to do, but most of those will revolve around RP. If that's not your bag, then simply roll another one and start grindin' son.

Man, he's trying to burn everyone--sheesh, how horrible, I can't take the feedback!

Oh, wait, I agree with everything he said. Gee, that doesn't sound bad at all to me.

[ormane]

Man, he's trying to burn everyone--sheesh, how horrible, I can't take the feedback!

Oh, wait, I agree with everything he said. Gee, that doesn't sound bad at all to me.

There's nothing wrong with agreeing or disagreeing in my mind. I just think it is important to preserve civility. The anonymity of the internets tends to rattle the cage of vicious little beasts in us. Striving as mature adults to keep that in check isn't such a bad thing.

[Trinn]

I dont get this feeling of maxing-out then having to semi-retire. I played 3 chars in Das1, and to be honeset Once I had hit 20 (with only 1) and gotten all that out of the way (slowly, too) I had a charachter I had developed on the way up to 20 that I now felt I could really start playing with.. for me things kinda started at 20! I could concentrate on all the other details Das brings to the game as well as just hitting 20 and getting some nice loot.

although I did just think one thing.. maybe getting to 20, and then being able to turn in gold or XP for custom clothing? that might be an idea...


hmm.. an interesting aside to this is I was annoyed when the lvl cap styed at 20 and didnt go up to 40 after the nwn1 expansion . I wonder what heavy powergamers think of that kind of maneuver?