My main is a leather/hide wearing druid that recently got to 8. Been in parties most of the time I spent questing.
Things have gone smoothly enough for me, although I don't really feel my druid is as overpowered as people think we druids are. That could be because of my no-metal policy, though.
All in all, the content so far is well balanced and fun, but as Grayle pointed out.. perhaps a bit on the easy side. Then again, we have to remember that this is fairly "low-level" content. Things shouldn't be too hard at these levels. That's not to say that I don't want a challenge, but rather that I don't want content on this level to be hair-rippingly impossible.
And Grayle, if you want deadly traps; try venturing into the tower. *Shudders at the reminder of permanent, deadly electrical traps*
What is your play style, and how do you find the encounters?
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StormRunner
- Dasarian Hero
- Posts: 704
- Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:43 pm
- Location: Brocation?!
In many ways Kalam is more rewarding than the Bugbears it seems to me - yet Buggies are harder. I'd like to see rewards proportional to difficulty.
Also, it is great that we are trying to make all classes useful. But I don't think you should make a class mandatory. Some of the locked stuff, perma traps, etc... just goes too far and now you need an anti-trap guy maybe just too much. It would be fine if tere were more content and some of the areas demanded an anti-trap build. But I don't like having it be so mandatory on the one high-level area.
Also, it is great that we are trying to make all classes useful. But I don't think you should make a class mandatory. Some of the locked stuff, perma traps, etc... just goes too far and now you need an anti-trap guy maybe just too much. It would be fine if tere were more content and some of the areas demanded an anti-trap build. But I don't like having it be so mandatory on the one high-level area.
I play one of two characters normally the first being a ranger and the second a druid. On a scale of 1-10 I would rate the difficulty about a four to seven depending on the quest. Kalam being lowest on the ladder and the sewers on the highest relative to level. I'll leave out the simple quests like the skin turn-in.
I group about 3/4 of the time. Groups 95% of the time have a rogue and wizard which decreases the difficulty significantly. Overall I believe the AI is part of the reason many of the fights are fairly easy. When a wizard spends his first two minutes of fighting casting buffs it distorts combat. The second reason I belive the difficulty is lacking is because fear of death isn't in place. It's more of an inconvenience, which allows players to do risky and potentially powerful actions without considering death.
The last point I will touch upon is the encounters themselves should be more party based. Most encounters you see don't have much synergy in the game. Bugbears is mostly barbarians since the casters die first and the magus order wizards are left without melee damage in many cases. You might want to try creating an encounters in which more of a balance in classes and damage type. Also small quarters fighting is much easier for the player than the AI, since it's well stupid. Lure players into open areas for more difficulty.
I group about 3/4 of the time. Groups 95% of the time have a rogue and wizard which decreases the difficulty significantly. Overall I believe the AI is part of the reason many of the fights are fairly easy. When a wizard spends his first two minutes of fighting casting buffs it distorts combat. The second reason I belive the difficulty is lacking is because fear of death isn't in place. It's more of an inconvenience, which allows players to do risky and potentially powerful actions without considering death.
The last point I will touch upon is the encounters themselves should be more party based. Most encounters you see don't have much synergy in the game. Bugbears is mostly barbarians since the casters die first and the magus order wizards are left without melee damage in many cases. You might want to try creating an encounters in which more of a balance in classes and damage type. Also small quarters fighting is much easier for the player than the AI, since it's well stupid. Lure players into open areas for more difficulty.
This second post will address how to increase difficulty since I left that out for the most part in my first post. Difficulty can be classified under one of these three catagories for me in NWN2:
1) The big fight
2) The endurance encounter
3) The unseen
1) These are the most common right now in Dasaria, although they don't have the intended effect. I would suggest making some of these fights not automatically hostile by adding in a conversation(OC idea). This allows you create the positioning of the encounter and takes away the close layout and terrain advantage discussed in my first post. Also make the encounters "friends" spawn when it turns hostile, suprise is always good. Consider the speaking NPC concentrated on first.
2) The resting timer does NOT create an endurance encounter, it creates a time limit on the quest so to speak. If you want challenge beyond the big fight scenario this needs to be expanded upon. The problem comes from the layout design as you can't allow backtracking down a level to rest. Placement is critical and I will give an example of this. The magus quest when you place the leaf on your tongue transports you to a zone with the only way out leading you to the beginning of the dungeon. This is an ideal situation for endurance challenge by making the areas beyond no rest. This would make it mandatory that the party fight all the way through on preparation because zoning out returns you to the entrance.
3) Traps and other goodies, these are extremely well done in Dasaria.
1) The big fight
2) The endurance encounter
3) The unseen
1) These are the most common right now in Dasaria, although they don't have the intended effect. I would suggest making some of these fights not automatically hostile by adding in a conversation(OC idea). This allows you create the positioning of the encounter and takes away the close layout and terrain advantage discussed in my first post. Also make the encounters "friends" spawn when it turns hostile, suprise is always good. Consider the speaking NPC concentrated on first.
2) The resting timer does NOT create an endurance encounter, it creates a time limit on the quest so to speak. If you want challenge beyond the big fight scenario this needs to be expanded upon. The problem comes from the layout design as you can't allow backtracking down a level to rest. Placement is critical and I will give an example of this. The magus quest when you place the leaf on your tongue transports you to a zone with the only way out leading you to the beginning of the dungeon. This is an ideal situation for endurance challenge by making the areas beyond no rest. This would make it mandatory that the party fight all the way through on preparation because zoning out returns you to the entrance.
3) Traps and other goodies, these are extremely well done in Dasaria.
I say pretty much the same as Minuvas, except I think I'd ot be so shy with the difficulty numbers. Add 1 to nearly 2 to his scores for me.
I had no problems getting to 4th, with the wolves, boars, deliveries etc.. and crypts, pretty much solo.
Since then It's not _too_ hard to solo, it is hard though, and a bad run (2/3 deaths) can see all youve gained and more being lost. The XP hit for dying is a bit too high for me. I dont mind it being as high as it is when I'm a higher level; I'd like the current number maybe scaled so at 1st it's -25% of what it is now, and at 20th it is +25%. It feels a bit harsh to me atm as I just dont have as many options to deal with a situation. I dont mind the gold penalty as is. Maybe make it a bit higher. There seems to be quite a bit of it about.
Rats / Kalem; doable but need to be very careful difficulty 7/8. Bugbears, I'm not going to try untill I can get something to strengthen my mind from somewhere first. Ive bee in there alone once and a party once. difficulty 8/9. It would be nice to have a solo aimed area that was a bit weak for XP, a bit weak on rewards, but slotted into the 6/7 area .
Party wise, Ive not had any troubles really with 3-4 in a party. Except the one and only time I tried the bugbears. It was very difficult for four of us, although I dont know what lvls people were. I was 7 Cleric.
I had no problems getting to 4th, with the wolves, boars, deliveries etc.. and crypts, pretty much solo.
Since then It's not _too_ hard to solo, it is hard though, and a bad run (2/3 deaths) can see all youve gained and more being lost. The XP hit for dying is a bit too high for me. I dont mind it being as high as it is when I'm a higher level; I'd like the current number maybe scaled so at 1st it's -25% of what it is now, and at 20th it is +25%. It feels a bit harsh to me atm as I just dont have as many options to deal with a situation. I dont mind the gold penalty as is. Maybe make it a bit higher. There seems to be quite a bit of it about.
Rats / Kalem; doable but need to be very careful difficulty 7/8. Bugbears, I'm not going to try untill I can get something to strengthen my mind from somewhere first. Ive bee in there alone once and a party once. difficulty 8/9. It would be nice to have a solo aimed area that was a bit weak for XP, a bit weak on rewards, but slotted into the 6/7 area .
Party wise, Ive not had any troubles really with 3-4 in a party. Except the one and only time I tried the bugbears. It was very difficult for four of us, although I dont know what lvls people were. I was 7 Cleric.
I have played a weapon master and wizard to 10, and played with rangers, clerics, druids, rogues, assassins, monks, to see what i like best... and wizard is my preferred class, so sticking with that for now.
As for the encounters, the undead ones need more small guys before the big guys (i.e bosses), the goblins aren't even worth doing due to such little xp... people have complained about rats being too hard for the level its for, but i find it's one of those things that you have to know very well before you can finish it, in a way that's good, but for people who wandered down there looking for a quest to do, they'll get hammered.
I also think the multiple charges of confusion the bugbear shamans have is sort of ridiculous, one at best, and maybe with 1-2 points lower DC would imo balance this out, ofcourse people will disagree. Ofcourse, this is only vs. the fighter classes (i.e, low will saves by default)
I prefer to solo, more challenging, but I do group up if I meet people on the way (taking they are within my level range)... because solo is a LOT more experience, to the point that if you know the dungeon well enough to solo it, there is no point - besides the obvious company / RP - to group up for it. So it really depends what you are doing at the time (i.e rp or grind).
In conclusion, they aren't all bad, some could do with tweaking, although not heavily necessary. Adding more content/quests would seem to be the favorable priority.
As for the encounters, the undead ones need more small guys before the big guys (i.e bosses), the goblins aren't even worth doing due to such little xp... people have complained about rats being too hard for the level its for, but i find it's one of those things that you have to know very well before you can finish it, in a way that's good, but for people who wandered down there looking for a quest to do, they'll get hammered.
I also think the multiple charges of confusion the bugbear shamans have is sort of ridiculous, one at best, and maybe with 1-2 points lower DC would imo balance this out, ofcourse people will disagree. Ofcourse, this is only vs. the fighter classes (i.e, low will saves by default)
I prefer to solo, more challenging, but I do group up if I meet people on the way (taking they are within my level range)... because solo is a LOT more experience, to the point that if you know the dungeon well enough to solo it, there is no point - besides the obvious company / RP - to group up for it. So it really depends what you are doing at the time (i.e rp or grind).
In conclusion, they aren't all bad, some could do with tweaking, although not heavily necessary. Adding more content/quests would seem to be the favorable priority.
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Swing a little more on the Devil's Dance Floor.
Swing a little more on the Devil's Dance Floor.
Wow Grayle your perception is dead-on with mine.Grayle wrote:There are places noone should be able to solo, and those places should vary per class strengths and weaknesses.
I think overall, the balance is fine with regard to my particular class. I would like to see traps perhaps a little better hidden, a little more lethal. I would like to see mobs a little more dangerous, have more hit points, and worth less XP.
I would like to see spawns randomized more and randomly spawned 'Sub-Bosses' that might pop up within a normal spawn, to combat predictability and add danger.
Overall, I think that if anything, the balance dial is more towards 'easy' than 'hard'. I think Casters have got a pretty good thing going. No idea how to effect that, tho.
Overall, I rate dasaria's danger quotient at: 4. The nice thing about being so in-the-middle is that the future addition of a DM client will give you alot of leighway to increase the challenge, whenever, wherever.
Good job!
I play a rogue/wizard and a fighter/DD. I generally don't solo, unless I cannot find an opportunity to RP and no one is on to interact with...
Wolves/Boars/Bear: 5
Crypt: 4-6
Goblin caves, Warehouse: 2
Farmer Cobb's Goblins: 8, the goblins have fairly high attack bonuses for the difficulty level.
Sewer rats: 9, the wererats have extremely high attack bonuses for the difficulty level, (compare them to bugbears, and you'll see what I mean), irresistable disease checks, etc..
Kalem: 4-6, since this allows a wide level range, it can be hard at first but extremely easy later on. The problem with this dungeon is it has an immense amount of loot. Although I prefer to play in a party, I could solo the entire thing as a rogue/wizard and come out extremely wealthy each time.
Bugbears: 3, Actually I find this very easy. If anyone has the knack to use protection from evil you can blow through this content without too much trouble. The bugbears themselves have poor attack bonuses compared to the rats (I think 8 and 3? versus 15+) so the Bugbear fighters tend to be more meat shields than actual threats. The shaman's AI is ok, but since they lack dispels anyone with Prot:Evil is immune to confusion.
Magnus Tower: 7-8, This place was well done and feels 'just right' to me in terms of challenge level, although it could use some enhancements to avoid the pitfalls of the terrible monster AI. My biggest complaint here is the unclickable traps in certain places (because of the arcane circles underneath them). Unfortunatel certain power builds can solo through this pretty easily in its current design (think divine-melee types). I think one of the best ways to resolve that is a dispel trap. Divine-melee's rarely have the ability to deal with traps and dispel is their worst nightmare. Dispel traps would put them in their place.
Overall I'm in agreement with Grayle, the server, as a whole feels too easy. Most of the quests should be brought up to par with the rats/magnus quest in terms of difficulty relative to the level of characters attempting them. The attack bonuses of the melee type monsters should be streamlined and set appropriately to the difficulty. It feels wrong to me that a wererat rogue has an AB of 17 in a level 7 cap quest versus a bugbear with an AB of 8 in a level cap 10 quest. Also the treasure rewards seem out of proportion as well. Kalem is way too much, Bugbears too little (relative to each other).
One other thing I noticed is the lack of places to use the "Open Lock" skill. There doesn't seem to be much of a reward for this skill (I can only think of the one in the Kalem dungeon). I suggest that alot of those treasures be protected by locks as well to cutdown on solo'ers that can power through everything ...and get their cake too. Perhaps put groups of loot behind a locked door that cannot be broken down. In fact, you could make Open Lock allow a party to avoid certain encounters on a difficult quest in some cases...
I suggest loot should be divided as follows:
1/3 of the loot should be droppable only on boss creatures. Add some randomness to their loot as well (if possible)
1/3 of the loot should be accessible by anyone assuming they can defeat the nearby monsters or go undetected.
1/3 of the loot should only be accessible by someone who can pick locks or disable devices (or both). Would also be nice to add tie-in to other quests to this kind of loot.
-k9burn
When everything is coming your way, you're in the wrong lane.
When everything is coming your way, you're in the wrong lane.
I play a level 6 Battle Bard! The nature of the Bard class tends to have me leading towards groups and the only dungeon I really solo'd was the low level Goblin one.
Wolves: At level one, my bard didn't stand a chance. If he won, it was a stroke of luck, they killed me in one or two hits. Challenge rating: 9
Wolves: At level two, my bard was much more sturdier. He still couldn't take multiple wolves, but he stood a chance at a single one, from thereafter he could handle himself fine against wolves. Challenge rating: 4
Boars: I couldn't solo Boars until around level 4. Before that I either had someone tank for me or munched off people who left their boar hides laying about. Challenge rating at level 4: 5.
Bear: At level 6 I can't solo a bear, but I can kill it easy with the help of one other person that's level 5 or 6. But there's still room for error. Challenge rating with Duo: 7
Cutter: I wouldn't ever know how tough this guy is, since i've only fought him once and that was with a group. I'm thinking that this quest needs a higher spawn rate. Once per server reset is very drastic. Finding Rate: 10!
Bugbear Caves: I've only dared enter this place once with a group of 6 people from varying levels 4-6. We got chewed a new one. Bugbear Berserkers we were able to handle, but the Shaman just confused half the party and nuked the other half. We did manage to get the key from one of the Shamans, though. I personally died 3 times and lost 1k exp before I decided to cut my losses. Challenge rating: 10.
Main Goblin Cave: I've been here once as well. With a party of 4. I was level 5 at the time, and our group was levels 3-6. We got beat pretty bad in the first room. Only two of us survived, me and a Warrior. After that we left. Challenge Rating: 10.
Crypts: What crypts? I've never been to the Crypts... I should go
Kalam: Same with Crypts... I got some explorin' to do.
Wolves: At level one, my bard didn't stand a chance. If he won, it was a stroke of luck, they killed me in one or two hits. Challenge rating: 9
Wolves: At level two, my bard was much more sturdier. He still couldn't take multiple wolves, but he stood a chance at a single one, from thereafter he could handle himself fine against wolves. Challenge rating: 4
Boars: I couldn't solo Boars until around level 4. Before that I either had someone tank for me or munched off people who left their boar hides laying about. Challenge rating at level 4: 5.
Bear: At level 6 I can't solo a bear, but I can kill it easy with the help of one other person that's level 5 or 6. But there's still room for error. Challenge rating with Duo: 7
Cutter: I wouldn't ever know how tough this guy is, since i've only fought him once and that was with a group. I'm thinking that this quest needs a higher spawn rate. Once per server reset is very drastic. Finding Rate: 10!
Bugbear Caves: I've only dared enter this place once with a group of 6 people from varying levels 4-6. We got chewed a new one. Bugbear Berserkers we were able to handle, but the Shaman just confused half the party and nuked the other half. We did manage to get the key from one of the Shamans, though. I personally died 3 times and lost 1k exp before I decided to cut my losses. Challenge rating: 10.
Main Goblin Cave: I've been here once as well. With a party of 4. I was level 5 at the time, and our group was levels 3-6. We got beat pretty bad in the first room. Only two of us survived, me and a Warrior. After that we left. Challenge Rating: 10.
Crypts: What crypts? I've never been to the Crypts... I should go
Kalam: Same with Crypts... I got some explorin' to do.
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Mensha Khaine
- Dasarian Hero
- Posts: 715
- Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:04 am
I tend to party as much as I can, its just more fun. I have noticed a increasing level gap with players floating around. This helps because some area we can go to with out waiting.
Down side to partying is the quest become completed. This really bites if you just logged in, but I know theres nothing you guys can do for it. A place to grind that is not quest related would be a good addition. Spawn, and/or spawn numbers passed of party/player lvl would be handy, and hopefully stop people camping at quest sites.
Melee Class:
Wolves - lvl2-4.. 4
Boars - lvl2-4.. 5
Bear - lvl2-4 no hope. lvl 5-6 I can take it out solo with cleric
Goblins - lvl2-4.. 3
rats - 9 Targeting is a big problem here. So is the number of rogues.
bugbears top level - 7
bugbears boss - party required.
Goblins2 - 6.
Mage:
Wolf packs are a big problem. Can the numebr of wolves drop based on lvl or class? I see alot of them just run back to the gate guards for help.
Boars Same problem.
Goblins - since they have low HP this is not to bad.
A mage early on is going to need a meat shield, but I guess later on the meatshield will need the mage
Down side to partying is the quest become completed. This really bites if you just logged in, but I know theres nothing you guys can do for it. A place to grind that is not quest related would be a good addition. Spawn, and/or spawn numbers passed of party/player lvl would be handy, and hopefully stop people camping at quest sites.
Melee Class:
Wolves - lvl2-4.. 4
Boars - lvl2-4.. 5
Bear - lvl2-4 no hope. lvl 5-6 I can take it out solo with cleric
Goblins - lvl2-4.. 3
rats - 9 Targeting is a big problem here. So is the number of rogues.
bugbears top level - 7
bugbears boss - party required.
Goblins2 - 6.
Mage:
Wolf packs are a big problem. Can the numebr of wolves drop based on lvl or class? I see alot of them just run back to the gate guards for help.
Boars Same problem.
Goblins - since they have low HP this is not to bad.
A mage early on is going to need a meat shield, but I guess later on the meatshield will need the mage
When there is no other way, the perilous path is the only road to salvation.
I have a level 8 weaponmaster/fighter that is a powergamer build specifically made for soloing. He can do all of the quests in the game except for the bugbear cave solo, with no problem. (Before the last PWC)
I could probably solo the Bugbears IF I buy enough potions and enough iems to prevent being confused constantly.
I have a level 5 wizard that cant solo anything aside from the wolves and boars, and the warehouse quest. All other quests he must join with a party.
All in all I would say things are pretty much standard, difficulty wise. Power-gamers can build a melee type and solo without much difficulty.... as long as they are willing to spend a good bit of gold on potions etc.. Non melee types will almost always need to be in a party to survive.
I could probably solo the Bugbears IF I buy enough potions and enough iems to prevent being confused constantly.
I have a level 5 wizard that cant solo anything aside from the wolves and boars, and the warehouse quest. All other quests he must join with a party.
All in all I would say things are pretty much standard, difficulty wise. Power-gamers can build a melee type and solo without much difficulty.... as long as they are willing to spend a good bit of gold on potions etc.. Non melee types will almost always need to be in a party to survive.
Found everything up to Magnus Guild just about soloable,sdeaths have and do happen, with my main character. With some thought and planning that is.
Prefer to party.
Disagree with the statement about Divine/Melee (unless its a powerbuild) . My main is this class structured for RP and can barely get in the door solo without dying.
Built an alt of same type but structured to be solo..(different domains etc) .so far its been a breeze to solo any and all areas short of Magnus.
Think what I'm saying here is, difficulty is a matter of perspective and player focus in the structure of their character.
I'll just go ahead and rate the server overall as 9.9/10..This is due to the drastic difficulty change between level 10 and below areas and the Magnus Guild...with nothing in between.
Addendum... I see so much time and energy spent worrying about "loot" its not funny.. take it all out make it purchasable or craftable... Let everything else drop gold or crafting items.. Except "end Bosses" give them a ummm 25% chance to drop something from a list of say 20 items.
Might actually see some real trading then.
Prefer to party.
Disagree with the statement about Divine/Melee (unless its a powerbuild) . My main is this class structured for RP and can barely get in the door solo without dying.
Built an alt of same type but structured to be solo..(different domains etc) .so far its been a breeze to solo any and all areas short of Magnus.
Think what I'm saying here is, difficulty is a matter of perspective and player focus in the structure of their character.
I'll just go ahead and rate the server overall as 9.9/10..This is due to the drastic difficulty change between level 10 and below areas and the Magnus Guild...with nothing in between.
Addendum... I see so much time and energy spent worrying about "loot" its not funny.. take it all out make it purchasable or craftable... Let everything else drop gold or crafting items.. Except "end Bosses" give them a ummm 25% chance to drop something from a list of say 20 items.
Might actually see some real trading then.
Last edited by EdCase on Mon Dec 18, 2006 5:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
Tomar - WarPriest of Girru.
Deanna - Mage of crafting
Sera - Want help? seek elsewhere
Merido Oaken - Cry havoc and let loose the Hogs of War!
Deanna - Mage of crafting
Sera - Want help? seek elsewhere
Merido Oaken - Cry havoc and let loose the Hogs of War!
As we are players too, we see the gaps and are working on filling them. My worry right now is the game at aprox. 9-11: Too tough for Kalem and too soft for the Tassalians.I'll just go ahead and rate the server overall as 9.9/10..This is due to the drastic difficulty change between level 10 and below areas and the Magnus Guild...with nothing in between.
Its in the works, and as I said...we are a loooooong way from done.
Absolutely. Was not intended to sound negative. I am well aware of the time and effort it takes to do what you do. I for one appreciate the work done so far. (Its why I keep coming back )Jehannum wrote:As we are players too, we see the gaps and are working on filling them. My worry right now is the game at aprox. 9-11: Too tough for Kalem and too soft for the Tassalians.I'll just go ahead and rate the server overall as 9.9/10..This is due to the drastic difficulty change between level 10 and below areas and the Magnus Guild...with nothing in between.
Its in the works, and as I said...we are a loooooong way from done.
Tomar - WarPriest of Girru.
Deanna - Mage of crafting
Sera - Want help? seek elsewhere
Merido Oaken - Cry havoc and let loose the Hogs of War!
Deanna - Mage of crafting
Sera - Want help? seek elsewhere
Merido Oaken - Cry havoc and let loose the Hogs of War!