I hear a lot of private complaining about some of the areas, or some of the creatures in an area.
If you have something to say, you might want to do it, as long as you provide constructive criticism; if people keep expressing their discontent in private, the development team will assume everything is fine.
Does an area have creatures that are too powerful for the intended level range, is a quest very hard but provides little XP, is an area just poorly designed, full stop?
Area/Creature Balance
I'll post up some comments later but I would like to point something out.
So far a lot of what people have been saying has been taken to be just whining, with a general attitude, at least publicly of being "get over it".
Now fairs fair alot of people DO whine but seeing that i suspect people who would otherwise post their concerns are just as you say talking about them in private.
Perhaps whats needed are some guidelines on how to best post in a thread like this?
So far a lot of what people have been saying has been taken to be just whining, with a general attitude, at least publicly of being "get over it".
Now fairs fair alot of people DO whine but seeing that i suspect people who would otherwise post their concerns are just as you say talking about them in private.
Perhaps whats needed are some guidelines on how to best post in a thread like this?
My top two would be the wererat area and the farmer hobb goblins. I don't know if they have changed them recently since I just don't venture there anymore not many parties ask to go. The goblins would not be to bad if it weren't for the traps although sometimes they bug and the whole map of em will come running to you when you enter the place. Some of the traps are rough though they were hitting me for over 70 points of damage many times and if I recall I did not get over 70 hitpoints until well after I should have moved on from the quest. The wererats were not as bad but the shear amount of traps got a bit much that and the fact that 2 out of the 5 times I got to the end I happend to be standing close to someone who decided they would see if they could survive the trap that was on the cenarion weapon rack 
they didn't and neither did I. The other 3 times I went nowhere near the back of that room where the racks were 
. I think the kalem area is actually easier but is for a higher level. They are still fun with a good group of people but I think it's a huge jump in difficulty from what people have experianced with the quests up until that point so it's a shocker for some.
they didn't and neither did I. The other 3 times I went nowhere near the back of that room where the racks were . I think the kalem area is actually easier but is for a higher level. They are still fun with a good group of people but I think it's a huge jump in difficulty from what people have experianced with the quests up until that point so it's a shocker for some.-
Stormknife
- Dasarian Hero
- Posts: 1126
- Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2006 7:24 am
- Main Player Character: Draco
- Other PCs: Shroud, Lorcann
- Location: The Original Dasarian Kitsune.
I'll post commentary on my lunch break, but things that need to be said when talking about how hard an area was for you.
Class or classes.
Level.
Race.
Party size (if you had one).
If you're a warlock, what invocations you're using.
If you're a caster, what spells you've tried.
Why is it too hard? "It just is" doesn't work.
If you're going to cite examples of how dangerous an area is, make sure it's plausible. If something truly freakish is happening there, be prepared to either have a screenshot of it, or steps on how to reproduce it.
Sometimes an area is going to suck for some classes. Example: The troll area for warlocks who don't have the acid or fire invocations. Yes, it is aggravating. Be prepared to accept that what YOU want isn't necessarily the best thing for the area, or may have ramifiacation beyond just making your life easier.
Class or classes.
Level.
Race.
Party size (if you had one).
If you're a warlock, what invocations you're using.
If you're a caster, what spells you've tried.
Why is it too hard? "It just is" doesn't work.
If you're going to cite examples of how dangerous an area is, make sure it's plausible. If something truly freakish is happening there, be prepared to either have a screenshot of it, or steps on how to reproduce it.
Sometimes an area is going to suck for some classes. Example: The troll area for warlocks who don't have the acid or fire invocations. Yes, it is aggravating. Be prepared to accept that what YOU want isn't necessarily the best thing for the area, or may have ramifiacation beyond just making your life easier.
Draco - "Allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste."
Lorcann - "BACON!"
<*>
Lorcann - "BACON!"
<*>
About the rats, falier, and kalem:
I have to disagree about the rats. I myself have played it dozens of times as a player and I feel it is working as intended. There are some areas where I do not have the extensive experience with as I do with the low-mid level areas, but I have to say on that point: The Rats and the Kalem, and the falier areas are working as intended, and change to them is unlikely, aside from further content develoment.
One thing about the rat area that I do plan on addressing is a more tiered XP reward based on the creature difficulty. Right now they are a flat-rate xp per kill.
Posting in this thread:
Regarding posting, constructive criticism needs to be precise and detailed.
A generality is not helping.
Comment on general difficulty:
Also I would say that you will soon see areas that are open to all levels, but will be geared toward a certain level, so walking in there five levels under the target level range will only result in doom and death. You can’t hold us accountable for characters biting off more than can be chewed.
Also, I have no intention of making a game as sickeningly easy as WOW. It will just never be like that. We like areas that require a degree of intelligent play to be successful at. We do not pretend or intend to make areas that everyone can "win." There are some areas that a certain party-make up just cannot do. It is not our fault if you cannot find such a make up and it is not a balance problem, but is by design and is working as intended.
How we test areas:
When we test, we do not play-test with super builds. We play test with standard classes. Super-builds will probably find our content a bit easy. When we test for balance we also usually test with a group that is in the mid-upper levels of the target level range. We test it over and over again. I have recruited dasarian players out of IRC many times to test new content combat difficulty. The testers are usually average to expert players in general gameplay knowledge and skill.
Also, keep in mind that just because you can "get" a quest does not mean that you can complete it without enlisting the proper companions of the proper power and skill.
I have to disagree about the rats. I myself have played it dozens of times as a player and I feel it is working as intended. There are some areas where I do not have the extensive experience with as I do with the low-mid level areas, but I have to say on that point: The Rats and the Kalem, and the falier areas are working as intended, and change to them is unlikely, aside from further content develoment.
One thing about the rat area that I do plan on addressing is a more tiered XP reward based on the creature difficulty. Right now they are a flat-rate xp per kill.
Posting in this thread:
Regarding posting, constructive criticism needs to be precise and detailed.
A generality is not helping.
Comment on general difficulty:
Also I would say that you will soon see areas that are open to all levels, but will be geared toward a certain level, so walking in there five levels under the target level range will only result in doom and death. You can’t hold us accountable for characters biting off more than can be chewed.
Also, I have no intention of making a game as sickeningly easy as WOW. It will just never be like that. We like areas that require a degree of intelligent play to be successful at. We do not pretend or intend to make areas that everyone can "win." There are some areas that a certain party-make up just cannot do. It is not our fault if you cannot find such a make up and it is not a balance problem, but is by design and is working as intended.
How we test areas:
When we test, we do not play-test with super builds. We play test with standard classes. Super-builds will probably find our content a bit easy. When we test for balance we also usually test with a group that is in the mid-upper levels of the target level range. We test it over and over again. I have recruited dasarian players out of IRC many times to test new content combat difficulty. The testers are usually average to expert players in general gameplay knowledge and skill.
Also, keep in mind that just because you can "get" a quest does not mean that you can complete it without enlisting the proper companions of the proper power and skill.
YES and YES To DM comments
I have enjoyed knowing that there are dungeons out there I stuggle with (goblins) and others that I can always go to if I want to have a bit of a play.
Stick to yuor guns and have some TOUGH stuff. Also like it that dungeons are not all obviously level rated. It means as you enter the first time you are on the edge of your set with nerves as you gauge the difficulty.
All warriors should know how to make strategic withdrawls.
CREATURES.... My only comment is that since the lands north of Caer got divided into two maps. The Farmer Cobb area has lost some of its feel for how creatures work. When travelling north along the road you often find piles of carcassess from the previous party (perhasp uber levels) who have been obliged to slay what attacks them. IE the animals spawn too close to the road. Lower levels should arrive and have to go into the wilds to hunt. If you intend a roadside attack what about two goblins from behind rocks?
Boars used to be found in the wheat field. this was GREAT fun as a low level. Boars do eat crops. Now they are not found in the field at all?
Also seems to be to many boar/wolf by the city walls
to the left as you leave the city. perhaps move a few to the other side of goblin mountain.??
Minor Points
regards
I have enjoyed knowing that there are dungeons out there I stuggle with (goblins) and others that I can always go to if I want to have a bit of a play.
Stick to yuor guns and have some TOUGH stuff. Also like it that dungeons are not all obviously level rated. It means as you enter the first time you are on the edge of your set with nerves as you gauge the difficulty.
All warriors should know how to make strategic withdrawls.
CREATURES.... My only comment is that since the lands north of Caer got divided into two maps. The Farmer Cobb area has lost some of its feel for how creatures work. When travelling north along the road you often find piles of carcassess from the previous party (perhasp uber levels) who have been obliged to slay what attacks them. IE the animals spawn too close to the road. Lower levels should arrive and have to go into the wilds to hunt. If you intend a roadside attack what about two goblins from behind rocks?
Boars used to be found in the wheat field. this was GREAT fun as a low level. Boars do eat crops. Now they are not found in the field at all?
Also seems to be to many boar/wolf by the city walls
to the left as you leave the city. perhaps move a few to the other side of goblin mountain.??
Minor Points
regards
I think the chopping up of the humongous areas did alot for server crashing. It seems that Size of the Area is in direct relation to the frequency of crashing.
I don't dungeon Crawl alot (Particularly because I'm not very good at it, and that most of the time my character playstyle has caused me to be a solo'er).
I would like to see , even if just small, signs outside major buildings. This s done in the Trades and Commons area, and can save you lots of time.
Other times - such as in Thralls Gate - NOT entering the Lochwar temple, will land you an unfriendly death surprise inside. Maybe something like "Tresspassers beware - Entrance by Invite only".
These are more distant and far off Goals, but I like to see those little server popup messages when you enter new areas (Consistent with messages that say "Up Ahead you see a Road marker"..)
Perhaps when you enter the Misty-Vale Inn it says "The Inn smells of dank ale. There is a Guard Captain who seems overwhelmed with work iatone end of the room, while all sorts of other Bar-frequents litter the room"
I don't dungeon Crawl alot (Particularly because I'm not very good at it, and that most of the time my character playstyle has caused me to be a solo'er).
I would like to see , even if just small, signs outside major buildings. This s done in the Trades and Commons area, and can save you lots of time.
Other times - such as in Thralls Gate - NOT entering the Lochwar temple, will land you an unfriendly death surprise inside. Maybe something like "Tresspassers beware - Entrance by Invite only".
These are more distant and far off Goals, but I like to see those little server popup messages when you enter new areas (Consistent with messages that say "Up Ahead you see a Road marker"..)
Perhaps when you enter the Misty-Vale Inn it says "The Inn smells of dank ale. There is a Guard Captain who seems overwhelmed with work iatone end of the room, while all sorts of other Bar-frequents litter the room"
-
daniel.alcantara
- Commoner
- Posts: 61
- Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:08 am
- In the Kalem complex, in the upstairs area where you get the key to the final boss (Zoey).
In this area you're supposed to fight 2 minstrels, the alchemist, 4~5 rogues and a barbarian(not exactly, but pretty close). If you arrrive after someone, and are waiting for the respawns, the area becomes way too easy.
You first get the 2 minstrels(without any muscle to protect them, they're dead before the first song).
Then the barbarian, and finally the alchemist with the rogues.
Not sure if it is supposed to happen this way, but without them respawing all at once, the encounter can be very difficult or very easy for the same group, just depending on when you arrive.
The same happens in the bugbear caves, in the room with Garren the black, and in the room to the right, on the 2nd level, where you get the final key.
-Bugbear caves:
Make the ground traps more powerfull. IMO, the cearian weapon racks ones are fine, but the other are harmless. If i understand well, its an area for 6-10lvl players, and i think that a lvl7 one should get killed pretty fast just running over them(which doesnt happen now).
Thats it for now, best regards to you all.
In this area you're supposed to fight 2 minstrels, the alchemist, 4~5 rogues and a barbarian(not exactly, but pretty close). If you arrrive after someone, and are waiting for the respawns, the area becomes way too easy.
You first get the 2 minstrels(without any muscle to protect them, they're dead before the first song).
Then the barbarian, and finally the alchemist with the rogues.
Not sure if it is supposed to happen this way, but without them respawing all at once, the encounter can be very difficult or very easy for the same group, just depending on when you arrive.
The same happens in the bugbear caves, in the room with Garren the black, and in the room to the right, on the 2nd level, where you get the final key.
-Bugbear caves:
Make the ground traps more powerfull. IMO, the cearian weapon racks ones are fine, but the other are harmless. If i understand well, its an area for 6-10lvl players, and i think that a lvl7 one should get killed pretty fast just running over them(which doesnt happen now).
Thats it for now, best regards to you all.
Very well then, here's my constructive critisim.
I can't specfic a party or levels, as I have tried these with both uber and a non uber build and partners several times usually consisting of a diffrent party each time.
First I should say that I am admantly opposed to insta-death. It's not fun, it allows for no choice of tactics other than "save or die". Several of my issues even in the quests that I think are fair are due to the high probability of insta-death or insta-death weilding creatures.
-Tower-
I think the tower is both too easy and too hard at the same time. There is a laggy encounter that needs to be trimmed on the dreamworld floor.
Part of the problem is that all the guards weild sycthes. X4 crit multiplier combined with pitiful normal damage makes for a save-or-die 5% of the time combined with the certinity of them not killing you if they don't chop your head off in one go. The casters also have stoneskin as a pre-buff, this makes them too hard for someone without an admantine weapon, yet soft and squishy to anyone with one.
The AC on the last guard...Captain Ver-something on the floor just before hte dreamworld....is quite high. Unbuffed AB and it's almost impossible to hit the guy. He dosen't do alot of damage, he's just got godly AC. Probaly should be in the middleground.
Dreamworld: The first encounter comeing off the steps with what is it....5 or 6 casters. That's a lag-fest. It's not that HARD provided you can manulipulate the AI of the game in some way(HIPS/Darkness/Dispel/Scilence), but it causes massive lag every time it's triggered. Caster AI is much more expensive than melee AI...And all of it fireing off at once, plus prebuffs, plus 2-3 more friendly NPC AI's(mostly caster too). It's just a lagfest. Probaly needs to be trimmed on both sides, a couple less casters with a couple more buffs and mabey 1 less friendly NPC.
Tower XP reward should probaly be taken down a notch. Mabey reduced 250-500 XP total. 1500 is quite high for the 'ease' of the quest. Reduceing it would make it less 'golden', especially given the mass amounts of treasure to be had, as well as keeping it high enough to allow a death due to bad luck(they happen) and still come out positive.
Next up troll cheese factory then troll caves then the monk/escaped slaves quest. I'll go through and remove misspellings if these posts are still here in a few hours.
I can't specfic a party or levels, as I have tried these with both uber and a non uber build and partners several times usually consisting of a diffrent party each time.
First I should say that I am admantly opposed to insta-death. It's not fun, it allows for no choice of tactics other than "save or die". Several of my issues even in the quests that I think are fair are due to the high probability of insta-death or insta-death weilding creatures.
-Tower-
I think the tower is both too easy and too hard at the same time. There is a laggy encounter that needs to be trimmed on the dreamworld floor.
Part of the problem is that all the guards weild sycthes. X4 crit multiplier combined with pitiful normal damage makes for a save-or-die 5% of the time combined with the certinity of them not killing you if they don't chop your head off in one go. The casters also have stoneskin as a pre-buff, this makes them too hard for someone without an admantine weapon, yet soft and squishy to anyone with one.
The AC on the last guard...Captain Ver-something on the floor just before hte dreamworld....is quite high. Unbuffed AB and it's almost impossible to hit the guy. He dosen't do alot of damage, he's just got godly AC. Probaly should be in the middleground.
Dreamworld: The first encounter comeing off the steps with what is it....5 or 6 casters. That's a lag-fest. It's not that HARD provided you can manulipulate the AI of the game in some way(HIPS/Darkness/Dispel/Scilence), but it causes massive lag every time it's triggered. Caster AI is much more expensive than melee AI...And all of it fireing off at once, plus prebuffs, plus 2-3 more friendly NPC AI's(mostly caster too). It's just a lagfest. Probaly needs to be trimmed on both sides, a couple less casters with a couple more buffs and mabey 1 less friendly NPC.
Tower XP reward should probaly be taken down a notch. Mabey reduced 250-500 XP total. 1500 is quite high for the 'ease' of the quest. Reduceing it would make it less 'golden', especially given the mass amounts of treasure to be had, as well as keeping it high enough to allow a death due to bad luck(they happen) and still come out positive.
Next up troll cheese factory then troll caves then the monk/escaped slaves quest. I'll go through and remove misspellings if these posts are still here in a few hours.
Don't get me wrong I am not saying these areas are broken. It's just the jump in difficulty catches people by surprise. After playing in the world awhile I know that if I am going to go into the goblin area I need those charms to absorb some elemental damage from traps or to have restoration potions on me where as before one just needed to have a heal potion or two. These two areas were the ones that I died in allot when trying and that's fine it's how ya learn and nobody wants an area that you has no danger. Part of the reason I don't go there anymore is not many people want to go there and netiher is a place to solo.Jehannum wrote:About the rats, falier, and kalem:
I have to disagree about the rats. I myself have played it dozens of times as a player and I feel it is working as intended. There are some areas where I do not have the extensive experience with as I do with the low-mid level areas, but I have to say on that point: The Rats and the Kalem, and the falier areas are working as intended, and change to them is unlikely, aside from further content develoment.
One thing about the rat area that I do plan on addressing is a more tiered XP reward based on the creature difficulty. Right now they are a flat-rate xp per kill.
Posting in this thread:
Regarding posting, constructive criticism needs to be precise and detailed.
A generality is not helping.
Comment on general difficulty:
Also I would say that you will soon see areas that are open to all levels, but will be geared toward a certain level, so walking in there five levels under the target level range will only result in doom and death. You can’t hold us accountable for characters biting off more than can be chewed.
Also, I have no intention of making a game as sickeningly easy as WOW. It will just never be like that. We like areas that require a degree of intelligent play to be successful at. We do not pretend or intend to make areas that everyone can "win." There are some areas that a certain party-make up just cannot do. It is not our fault if you cannot find such a make up and it is not a balance problem, but is by design and is working as intended.
How we test areas:
When we test, we do not play-test with super builds. We play test with standard classes. Super-builds will probably find our content a bit easy. When we test for balance we also usually test with a group that is in the mid-upper levels of the target level range. We test it over and over again. I have recruited dasarian players out of IRC many times to test new content combat difficulty. The testers are usually average to expert players in general gameplay knowledge and skill.
Also, keep in mind that just because you can "get" a quest does not mean that you can complete it without enlisting the proper companions of the proper power and skill.
Reguarding Kalem I found the place much easier after the rats and goblins but everyonce in awhile a bard stuns you in their cloud and 5 rogues pop out of nowhere and start sticking you in your kidneys
which makes it still kind fun. It also has to do with it being a higher traffic area so after the first group has gone through all the traps are gone so really just getting a high ac is all you worry about there. I am not sure if it's a bug but I have entered a couple times and had the smelter run all the way from his room to find me bringing everyone he finds on the way. I think this has to do with someone sneaking through or getting killed by him.PS. What makes Kalem bards able to use their spell resist song on themselves.
<--- Jelous
-The cheese factory/rats next-
This place isn't too hard, and it's not too easy....For a group at the top end of it's difficulty. With a rogue. It should probaly be simply raised in level by 2 on the top and bottom end.
However, as that would leave a content gap, it's unlikely to happen, so here's what needs to be done to balance it for it's current level.
Traps: Boy this place has a lot of traps. EVERYTHING is trapped. It's worse than the kalem brotherhood...At least there you have room to manuver. You need a rogue much moreso in here than you do in the kalem brotherhood both because the traps are nastier for their level and because they are much less avoidable. It could be simplified by removeing some of them, or by replaceing them with less powerful traps.
Also at fault in this area is an extreme difficulty 'cliff'. Much like in the tower going from the top floor to the dreamworld, fighting through the first 2/3 of this quest is a peice of cake versus fighting the elder wererats. They aren't that HARD....just for the level approite group, avoiding the traps, fighting in tight corridors, it's a bit much when you add it all togther. My suggestion would be to raise the level of the quest by 2 and increase the difficulty of the first 2/3. Or tone down the difficulty of the latter 2/3 of the quest.(Basically just the boss room and the area immediatly outside it)
This place isn't so bad, more just a case of 'too many good ideas in too small a map'.
This place isn't too hard, and it's not too easy....For a group at the top end of it's difficulty. With a rogue. It should probaly be simply raised in level by 2 on the top and bottom end.
However, as that would leave a content gap, it's unlikely to happen, so here's what needs to be done to balance it for it's current level.
Traps: Boy this place has a lot of traps. EVERYTHING is trapped. It's worse than the kalem brotherhood...At least there you have room to manuver. You need a rogue much moreso in here than you do in the kalem brotherhood both because the traps are nastier for their level and because they are much less avoidable. It could be simplified by removeing some of them, or by replaceing them with less powerful traps.
Also at fault in this area is an extreme difficulty 'cliff'. Much like in the tower going from the top floor to the dreamworld, fighting through the first 2/3 of this quest is a peice of cake versus fighting the elder wererats. They aren't that HARD....just for the level approite group, avoiding the traps, fighting in tight corridors, it's a bit much when you add it all togther. My suggestion would be to raise the level of the quest by 2 and increase the difficulty of the first 2/3. Or tone down the difficulty of the latter 2/3 of the quest.(Basically just the boss room and the area immediatly outside it)
This place isn't so bad, more just a case of 'too many good ideas in too small a map'.