Not a Bug but a Content Idea

[Sir Nemerov]

Sorry in advance for putting this in the bug report area but I really didnt know where to put this. Anyway, I know that you guys promote groups and such but staying in role of alignment can sometimes hinder this. It would be nice to have a few areas that can be solo'ed from levels 4 thru 10 or even 15. Something that maybe can only be done as a single member party. That way some of the more less then desired races\classed can level appropriately. I'm sure this would take a ton of work on the dasaria staff but its just my 2 cp.

As an example, if you wanted to be a lawful evil (rogue, assasin, warlok, etc.) you would never in a million years group with a party that has a paladin or a good cleric. Being very new to this PW, I get the feel that most are CG or better. Still, a party across all spectrums of the alignment would never "really" happen.

Point in fact, I have a drow elf wizard that cannot buy potions or healing aids. This makes the advancement of this character very hard, which in no way should be a problem except there's nothing she can really do solo. In addition getting from 5th level higher certainly requires a group.

Anyway, I hope you dont take this as a rant. Just an idea to accomodate those players of the darker side of things.

[Peregrinus]

To throw out some things.

A. You can still buy healing supplies, Mae just won't sell to you. Try Ram's in Trades and Commons.

B. An evil character can party with good characters, alignment is not that restrictive. He may not like how good characters do things, but there's no restriction on evil characters partying up. If your character refuses to work with Good characters, that's his problem, not the other characters.

C. You're making assumptions on other player's alignments pretty heavily. I'd wager that the majority of characters are, at best Neutral. There's many characters that are downright evil, and about as many are good. It's a really mixed bag. Further, most folks who play evil characters play them as "affably evil," which means they don't come off as evil.

[Sir Nemerov]

Peregrinus, I've read and understand all that you say though I have one problem. Although you say that its up to the character to join in with a party regardless of alignment, based soley on alignement it would never happen. You would never see a CE or LE in the same group with a LG. At least in mho. There would be too much conflict for the group to even work. On another note, if this PW premotes role playing then 1 those groups shouldnt be allowed to exist and 2 if they do, there should be some penalty.

My only point here was trying to expand on the Dasaria PW. Not hinder it. Folks, if you play out of alignment then you might as well toss your character in the recycle bin!

Another example, when I play my paladin I try to say hello to all the player characters i see in my travels. When I play my CE wizard I ignore everyone.

Again, maybe I'm taking this too far. Maybe I'm not. I'd just like to see a little more content that can be solo'ed to help shape a character.

[Ziggurath]

You would never see a CE or LE in the same group with a LG. At least in mho. There would be too much conflict for the group to even work. On another note, if this PW premotes role playing then 1 those groups shouldnt be allowed to exist and 2 if they do, there should be some penalty.

I must say I totally disagree with this, and think that you have a too narrow view on peoples' motives and thoughts. For example a chaotic evil character would not necessarily be generally known as one. He could just pretend to be something else to benefit from the companionship of some lawful good characters, only to turn on them when the time is right. And I don't see why say chaotic evil and lawful good people could not exist in the same place. Think of Jack the Ripper and the Metropolitan Police.

My only point here was trying to expand on the Dasaria PW. Not hinder it. Folks, if you play out of alignment then you might as well toss your character in the recycle bin!

I play an evil character, and I find lots of role play reasons that make sense to team up with good aligned characters from time to time.

Another example, when I play my paladin I try to say hello to all the player characters i see in my travels. When I play my CE wizard I ignore everyone.

Chaotic evil character in my opinion does not have to be a rude, violent, dog kicking person at all. He might appear like a somewhat normal person of the community until he reveals his true nature.

edit: I play a neutral evil/true neutral character

[Evelond Formos]

Good does not mean nice.
Evil does not mean jerk.
Chaotic does not mean insane.
Lawful does not mean hardass.

Play characters, not alignments.

[Wired]

Please leave the bugs forum for bugs, thank you.

EDIT: Moved to OOC

[Mon-da-oth]

Even parties that are composed mostly of good-aligned characters will pick up an evil character especially if the character has a skill that the party needs. This works totally to the advantage of the evil character as he can name his price or do just about anything he wants as he knows that rest of the party needs him, although he should keep in mind that he might need to high-tail it out of there once the job is done. (A real ego boost to the character as well)

[Vahene]

It would be nice to have a few areas that can be solo'ed from levels 4 thru 10 or even 15. Something that maybe can only be done as a single member party. That way some of the more less then desired races\classed can level appropriately.

I agree, but probably for a different reason. Some character builds, regardless of alignment can be hard to level.

As an example, if you wanted to be a lawful evil (rogue, assasin, warlok, etc.) you would never in a million years group with a party that has a paladin or a good cleric. Being very new to this PW, I get the feel that most are CG or better. Still, a party across all spectrums of the alignment would never "really" happen.

I have a Chaotic Evil Cleric who parties with a bunch of Neutral characters - one of which is Lawful Neutral, and let me tell you, it's a wonderful experience, usually. It is challenging, but it should be. With that said, I think it's completely plausible that Evil and Good characters could work together - and there are plenty of other alignments in Dasaria than just CG or better - one of my other main characters, Edana, is Chaotic Neutral. [Do you get the feeling I like Chaotic characaters?]

Point in fact, I have a drow elf wizard that cannot buy potions or healing aids

There is one place that will sell them to you. Plus, you can always ask others to buy them for you.

You would never see a CE or LE in the same group with a LG.

It's happened, yes.

[Sir Nemerov]

Yes the grouping does happen regardless of alignment but you all know that a LE character would downright butt heads with a LG character all the time. IMHO that group would never happen. In addition, the CE character might play a party but I think without the oppertunity to do things for himself (namely all quests over 5th level MUST be done as a group) that alignment cannot truely be played.

In addition to the grouping, and I know this happens in EQ as I was and am still a member since 2000, those who know the quest and want to complete it for the exp to level dont really play their character. I mean if your in a group with a seasoned player and they tell you there's nothing down that passage or in that room, that takes away from the game experience. It's like a 10th lvl fighter running thru the bugbear cave, setting off traps because it wont effect them that much rather then letting the theif in the party try to disarm the trap.

To me, and again I havent played for very long, but it seems everyone wants hack and slash rather then use the tools given to them in a party or just wants to get the quest completed the quickest way possible. Again this goes back to those that have knowledge of the quest.

Now that this is totally off topic, I still feel there should be some side quests that allow all character races, classes and alignments to enjoy the game based on how they play their character. I think there should be some solo options incorporated to the PW to aid that.

[Evelond Formos]

Yes the grouping does happen regardless of alignment but you all know that a LE character would downright butt heads with a LG character all the time. IMHO that group would never happen. In addition, the CE character might play a party but I think without the oppertunity to do things for himself (namely all quests over 5th level MUST be done as a group) that alignment cannot truely be played.

Why would an LE character bump heads with a LG character all the time? Players might be able to tell alignments but characters can't. Lawful Good and Lawful Evil are both relatively principled, and it's often pretty hard to distinguish between the two (some "paladins" actually play in such a way as to suggest that they should really be lawful or even chaotic evil instead of lawful good).

Similarly, there's no real reason a CE character must be a loner. Remember that chaotic evil doesn't mean crazy or murderous; it actually surprises me how many evil characters are, right off the bat, okay with murder. I would say most people that one could classify as "evil" in real life don't actually think of themselves as evil.

Generally speaking, the "typical" chaotic character (I abhor the term, but that's beside the point) is one that performs actions on a whim and without regard for previously established protocol or some other variant thereof. The "typical" evil character is one that is willing to harm others (financially, emotionally, mentally, or physically) in order to meet a goal... very few chaotic evil characters like harming others for harming others' sake, and if they do, they're Batshit Insane, not Chaotic Evil.

In addition to the grouping, and I know this happens in EQ as I was and am still a member since 2000, those who know the quest and want to complete it for the exp to level dont really play their character. I mean if your in a group with a seasoned player and they tell you there's nothing down that passage or in that room, that takes away from the game experience. It's like a 10th lvl fighter running thru the bugbear cave, setting off traps because it wont effect them that much rather then letting the theif in the party try to disarm the trap.

If a seasoned player is giving you spoilers, tell them to stop. If a 10th level fighter is running through a dungeon and setting off traps even though they know full well there's a skilled trap disabler in the party, tell them to stop. If someone is ruining your fun by taking away your function in a party, tell them to stop. If they don't stop, leave--they weren't worth playing with if they're only concerned with themselves.

To me, and again I havent played for very long, but it seems everyone wants hack and slash rather then use the tools given to them in a party or just wants to get the quest completed the quickest way possible. Again this goes back to those that have knowledge of the quest.

Generally, if you roleplay and you're partying with a good crowd, they'll also stop to smell the roses. However, at the end of the day, Dasaria is a game people play to have fun on, and sometimes people simply aren't in the mood for roleplaying. While this is not always the case and some people really do just want to grind for XP and loot, I think you'll find the majority of people on Dasaria genuinely enjoy roleplaying--however, some people will simply assume you've already done the quest, because they have a dozen times. This is, of course, an erroneous presumption, but it's a natural one, and the best you can do is try to dispel it--OOC or IC.

Now that this is totally off topic, I still feel there should be some side quests that allow all character races, classes and alignments to enjoy the game based on how they play their character. I think there should be some solo options incorporated to the PW to aid that.

Almost all quests in Dasaria are designed for parties of any type. Some quests provide different paths ("evil", "good"), but most of them leave that sort of thing to inter-party roleplay.

While almost all quests are designed to be completed with a party, most of them are technically soloable (though soloing combat quests is generally not recommended unless you're built for soloing). In fact, as far as I know, there are only two quests in the entire gameworld that require you to have a party, and one of them isn't even accessible yet.

[Vahene]

These are replies in general, not directed towards any one person:

In addition, the CE character might play a party but I think without the oppertunity to do things for himself (namely all quests over 5th level MUST be done as a group) that alignment cannot truely be played.

This is the technical definition of Chaotic Evil, taken from the NWN2 Wiki:

"The Destroyer - A chaotic evil character does whatever his greed, hatred, and lust for destruction drive him to do. He is hot-tempered, vicious, arbitrarily violent, and unpredictable. If he is simply out for whatever he can get, he is ruthless and brutal. If he is committed to the spread of evil and chaos, he is even worse.

These characters are the bane of all that is good and organized. Chaotic evil characters are motivated by the desire for personal gain and pleasure. They see absolutely nothing wrong with taking whatever they want by whatever means possible. Laws and governments are the tools of weaklings unable to fend for themselves. The strong have the right to take what they want, and the weak are there to be exploited.

Thankfully, their plans are haphazard, and any groups they join or form are poorly organized. Typically, chaotic evil people can be made to work together only by force, and their leader lasts only as long as he can thwart attempts to topple or assassinate him.

As an example a demented sorcerer pursuing mad schemes of vengeance and havoc is chaotic evil. Chaotic evil is sometimes called "demonic", because demons are the epitome of chaotic evil.

Chaotic evil is the alignment which represents the destruction not only of beauty and life but also of the order on which beauty and life depend. It also the most unstable and destructive form of chaos or evil (compare and contrast with lawful good), due to losing ones self to impulse and desire."

While you are correct that a LG character and a CE character will not get along - the CE character most definitely will do whatever he or she wants to do at any given time. He or she will use anyone to further his or her goals.

Similarly, there's no real reason a CE character must be a loner. Remember that chaotic evil doesn't mean crazy or murderous; it actually surprises me how many evil characters are, right off the bat, okay with murder. I would say most people that one could classify as "evil" in real life don't actually think of themselves as evil.

I agree, to a point but, evil basically means that you don't have any morals or compulsions to do good. You don't want to follow the law, you don't want to obey authority figures, and you especially don't care about preserving life. In fact, Chaotic Evil characters basically want to destroy everything. How they achieve that goal is up to them but it's usually via murder and plotting. And the plotting usually involves someone dying.

I know you know this Eve, but others don't - but my cleric, Vallyn, always asks the LN person in her group "Who do I get to kill tonight?" She's only half-joking. She really wouldn't mind killing everyone she came across, but Chaotic Evil characters do have a bit of restraint. Just a bit, mind you. If someone is useful to them, they'll let them live. If not, oh well. That doesn't mean that a CE character must be played as PvP - because I don't believe in playing a CE character that way. It just means that CE is a role-playing opportunity for the player - to see how long he/she can go and what he/she can do to manipulate the situation to his/her favor.

Generally speaking, the "typical" chaotic character (I abhor the term, but that's beside the point) is one that performs actions on a whim and without regard for previously established protocol or some other variant thereof.

I prefer to simply use the word "unpredictable" for the general term of Chaotic, myself.

The "typical" evil character is one that is willing to harm others (financially, emotionally, mentally, or physically) in order to meet a goal... very few chaotic evil characters like harming others for harming others' sake, and if they do, they're Batshit Insane, not Chaotic Evil.

Harming others for harming others sake is pretty much the definition of someone who doesn't care about the preservation of life, and, in my opinion, a Chaotic Evil character. As I posted above, the CE character is the destroyer - one who wants destruction at all costs, and while I agree with you, they might do that financially, emotionally, and mentally - they probably will just kill you if the rest of their options run out. CE characters like harm, that's the difference between a CN and a CE character - the CE character doesn't care if he kills you or not, while the CN character might actually pause to think about it for a moment or two.

K

[Evelond Formos]

This is the technical definition of Chaotic Evil, taken from the NWN2 Wiki:

The descriptions of alignments by Wizards of the Coast, Obsidian, and Bioware all seem to suggest that there are and have only been nine different PCs (or NPCs), ever, and no more will ever be created--their bodies will just change. That's why I don't go by alignment definitions.

While you are correct that a LG character and a CE character will not get along - the CE character most definitely will do whatever he or she wants to do at any given time. He or she will use anyone to further his or her goals.

Not necessarily. Too often I find people to expect alignments to be obvious, while in real people they aren't. There's no reason the average LG and CE character cannot get along. Also, a chaotic character is not always without a sense of deference or planning: there is such a thing as organized chaos, or short-term decisiveness. Contradictory though it might be I'll here cite a common phrase included in the CE alignment description: "A chaotic evil character is more likely to cross a bridge than she is to, say, jump off of it."

Friendships also enter the equation... it's very possible for a CE character to develop a friendship with, say, a LG character, since neither can really see eachothers' alignments (boo paladins, you don't count). Alignments tend to go blurry when it comes to interactions with friends... take the evillest of evil kings, ever, and surround him with family and friends. While he could be a real monster to his people, wreaking havoc upon them on a whim, he is generally more reserved and even decent around those he is close to. Thus, a chaotic evil character might actually, by choice, defer to the judgment of someone they trust more.

I agree, to a point but, evil basically means that you don't have any morals or compulsions to do good. You don't want to follow the law, you don't want to obey authority figures, and you especially don't care about preserving life. In fact, Chaotic Evil characters basically want to destroy everything. How they achieve that goal is up to them but it's usually via murder and plotting. And the plotting usually involves someone dying.

I disagree on a fundamental level. An evil character most certainly can and usually does feel a compulsion to do "good"; however, their perception of good, or in more cliché cases, their means to get it, usually deviate too far from goodness to be viable. Evil does not mean you don't want to follow the law or even that you don't have principles, and many of the lawful evil or even chaotic evil people you meet probably think of themselves as lawful or chaotic good.

That a chaotic evil character 'want[s] to destroy everything' is simply not true... that they 'want to destroy everything' would mean they are clinically insane, not evil.

An example of a chaotic evil character, I might suggest, would be the idealist who envisions a future of world peace, and starts walking the road toward that world... with rather unprovoked bombs and airstrikes and bullets.

I know you know this Eve, but others don't - but my cleric, Vallyn, always asks the LN person in her group "Who do I get to kill tonight?" She's only half-joking. She really wouldn't mind killing everyone she came across, but Chaotic Evil characters do have a bit of restraint. Just a bit, mind you. If someone is useful to them, they'll let them live. If not, oh well. That doesn't mean that a CE character must be played as PvP - because I don't believe in playing a CE character that way. It just means that CE is a role-playing opportunity for the player - to see how long he/she can go and what he/she can do to manipulate the situation to his/her favor.

Vallyn, like others of her stature, is a special case, because she follows the very god of darkness and destruction. She is a good example of a fanatical Colothian chaotic evil character, but she is not a good example of chaotic evil characters in general.

Harming others for harming others sake is pretty much the definition of someone who doesn't care about the preservation of life, and, in my opinion, a Chaotic Evil character. As I posted above, the CE character is the destroyer - one who wants destruction at all costs, and while I agree with you, they might do that financially, emotionally, and mentally - they probably will just kill you if the rest of their options run out. CE characters like harm, that's the difference between a CN and a CE character - the CE character doesn't care if he kills you or not, while the CN character might actually pause to think about it for a moment or two.

Like I've said before, chaotic evil characters don't necessarily think of themselves as evil, and they actually usually do have a set of principles they follow. That all or even most chaotic evil characters are uncaring of the preservation of life is unreasonable to say. Go to my terrorist example above, he is all for the preservation of life, but some life, in his eyes, must be eliminated to make way for better lives for all.

I wouldn't put it above the typical CE character to threaten to kill somebody in order to get something, but the fact is that most sentient beings, human or no, start off with queasy stomachs when it comes to killing other sentient beings. A bank robber that is only in his 'business' for the profits might be considered chaotic evil (depends on his methodology), but you'll note that a lot of bank robbers are actually reluctant to ever shoot anybody.

[Vahene]

Too often I find people to expect alignments to be obvious, while in real people they aren't.

Good thing that the game isn't real then. It isn't supposed to be real. When we create our characters, we go by the alignment descriptions that are provided by the game. That is what we go by, not by real life psychological and sociological concepts. If we went by real life, trust me, I would play my characters differently. Especially since one of my majors is Criminology, and my minor is Sociology. Trust me, I know quite about about "real evil" by this point.

Alignments in the game are supposed to be obvious - those little blurbs that you click on are supposed to be read before you create your characters. Those are the guidelines you're supposed to follow, in my opinion.

There's no reason the average LG and CE character cannot get along. Also, a chaotic character is not always without a sense of deference or planning: there is such a thing as organized chaos, or short-term decisiveness.

Vallyn, my CE Priestess of Anshar WILL NEVER get along with a Paladin. Ever. Period. Any CE character that gets along with LG character isn't playing a CE character. The two alignments provide completely different personalities for the individual characters in question. Nor would a Paladin, or any other LG character [but a Paladin especially], trust a CE character as far as they could throw them.

And I never said that CE characters don't plan. I said in my original post that CE's manipulate. But they do not have the morality in them that would want to preserve a life. It just isn't there.

Friendships also enter the equation... it's very possible for a CE character to develop a friendship with, say, a LG character, since neither can really see eachothers' alignments (boo paladins, you don't count).

I disagree. And paladin's do count, but they have an obvious detection ablity, so they're more apt to know if someone is evil or good when they're first talking to them. But the first time the CE character found out about the LG character's beliefs - the most that the CE would want to do is manipulate them - but they would never allow themselves to be friends with them. They would use them until Canas took over the lands - but they would never be their friend. CE characters, ultimately, only care about numero uno. Themselves.

An evil character most certainly can and usually does feel a compulsion to do "good"; however, their perception of good, or in more cliché cases, their means to get it, usually deviate too far from goodness to be viable. Evil does not mean you don't want to follow the law or even that you don't have principles, and many of the lawful evil or even chaotic evil people you meet probably think of themselves as lawful or chaotic good.

We're not talking about LE here - a LE character would still follow the law [hence, the lawful part of the descriptor] but wouldn't necessarily do it because they're supposed to. They will do it for that reason, but ultimately, LE characters will also twist the law if it helps them achieve their own goals. A CE character doesn't care about the law. To them it doesn't exist. Why would they follow something they wanted to destroy? The only reason they would follow laws is if by disobeying those laws [such as having weapons out inside of Cear] they would draw attention to themselves.

I'm not talking about evil itself, Eve. I'm talking specifically about CE characters. But there are multiple levels of evil inside of this game - LE, NE, and CE. Only the first is going to have a strong desire to follow the law - and even that will have conditions put upon it. And again, this isn't real life - we're talking about NWN2 and DnD alignments here - so the comparison can't be made between alignments and real life - they're two completely different things.

That a chaotic evil character 'want[s] to destroy everything' is simply not true... that they 'want to destroy everything' would mean they are clinically insane, not evil.

An example of a chaotic evil character, I might suggest, would be the idealist who envisions a future of world peace, and starts walking the road toward that world... with rather unprovoked bombs and airstrikes and bullets.

Um. No. They aren't insane, persay. They just have no desire to maintain order. And I have no clue how you can think a CE would want to have peace in any way, shape or form. I can't picture it, again by the description of CE given in game. Especially when it specifically says that CE characters wish destruction.

We're going to have to agree to disagree especially since we're aren't going to agree on this.

And it seems that I'm the only player of a CE character willing [or, able at this point] to defend my position.

K

[Evelond Formos]

I had hoped placing an emoticon at the end of my post would help dispel any (erroneous) thoughts that I was in any way being hostile. The tone of your post unfortunately suggests otherwise.

[Vahene]

I had hoped placing an emoticon at the end of my post would help dispel any (erroneous) thoughts that I was in any way being hostile. The tone of your post unfortunately suggests otherwise.

I didn't think you were being hostile.

But, I don't think real life has any sort of comparison to this particular game that we're playing.

K