Roleplay and You

[The Explorer]

I dont see why this has turned into a powergamers vs roleplayers debate. One can be a powergamer and a roleplayer, and there are plenty of those on Dasaria. One of the main perks of Dasaria is not being forced into having to RP at all times. If you want to just hook up with a friend for a quest run, or you are that little bit of XP off of the next level you dont need to RP. I personally find alot of fun out of creating the best character on sheet as I can. That doesnt mean I dont roleplay; the fact that this seems to be the opinion is rather sad.

Totally agreed Gobby since they seem to be labelling, I fit smack dab in the middle of powergamer verses Roleplayers groups so I'd call myself a Powerplayer

Dasaria 2 is a game and therefore about players having fun, being a powergamer isn't a problem especially if it doesn't affect the rest of the Rping community! Sometimes I'll thorouoghly enjoy spending 6 hours Rping doing no adventuring other times I just want to join friends here going on quests and killing stuff/getting one of my ridiculous builds to lvl 20 etc etc

Not sure if I am allowed to say this or how quickly the DM's will delete this bit but out of all my chars the ones I've Rpied the most and are involved in Dasaria have the most powerful weapons ingame e.g. a Demigod killing Dagger etc and they have absolutely nothing to do with the weapons crap 1d4 of nothiness mechanical stats. Rping is rewarded by DM's when seen and in Das they reward it relevently to whats going on sometimes by XP rewards or deductions, sometimes by items and other times by awesome things which you have to use responsibly.

This thread is about Rp not powergamers which have no bearing on your Rp as others have mentioned pure powergamers come and go to FR so need not be discussed.

[Twist of Cain]

I dont see why this has turned into a powergamers vs roleplayers debate. One can be a powergamer and a roleplayer, and there are plenty of those on Dasaria.

Powergaming comes up because the value of a reward is determined by it's rarity and availability. A discussion about effectively rewarding roleplayers should be put in perspective of gaining things through powergaming alone.

By reading the above paragraph the only thing I can see is that there is a wish for forcing others to roleplay and punishing those that do not wish to be extreme roleplayers. Again as stated before in this thread, this goes against what Dasaria is.

There's a difference between forcing people to RP and requiring that people do not distract people who are on the server to roleplay with OOC chatter. It's a matter of courtesy to roleplayers, not to kill the mood.

I dont quite understand what you are saying here. From what I can get from this paragraph is it is selfish to consider the RP as your own reward rather then getting a unique item from the DM for your RP?

What I'm talking about is the attitude, "Roleplayers don't deserve a big reward, after putting in a lot of time making a story come alive to other players - but I deserve to get 10x the XP reward and items than they do for taking my powerbuild out to kill orcs."

If powergamers want a RP reward they will RP for it. As powergamers it could be assumed that they could obtain the powerful equipment on the server as it is through grinding. If someone is rewarded for RPing I dont see why a powergamer would complain. Simply put if they want the RP reward, RP.

You're absolutely right, and getting people to roleplay is the goal, of course. One question remains, how do you keep the rewards desirable over time? Will everyone be able to get it?

While I love the DMs here, I wouldn't put favoritism past anyone, and I don't trust authority enough to believe that things wouldn't be abused.

The DM team already has maximum potential for abuse. What we're discussing here won't change anything about that. Application decisions, etc, should all be voted on by the whole DM team anyway. So unless you think they're all out to get you...

By giving players more freedom to decide their builds without restriction, while it may encourage powergaming, it also sends a message that we're more about having fun than anything else.

If someone finds roleplaying more fun than anything else, and a system with restrictions ends up fostering a better RP community, that system might be more about having fun. Noone has ever made my experience on a server memorable by having some "creative, unrestricted" build.

Also, why should RPers be mechanically more powerful than powergamers?

Roleplayers use their abilities and invest their time into making the world come alive for the people around them. This is invaluable to a roleplay server's ambience, and I would consider it wise for more than one reason to reward these types of players with exclusive things that have real impact.

Then you are to narrow minded in your definition of RP. [...] You've never encountered me, so I would suggest making claims as to what type of RPer I am based on my briefly stated likes and dislikes is inadvisable. It also smacks of a feable attempt at an Ad Hominem "argument."

An Ad Hominem argument is not necessarily fallacious, and my argument was not based on this in the first place. I'm not defining what RP is at all, neither am I commenting negatively on your character as a person. I even said that, like you, I also prefer roleplay with danger to social roleplay. There is nothing wrong with enjoying questing or casual roleplay during questing, of course, nor would that invalidate your opinion in any way. Relax.

Something I would like to know, is why are you wanting to change Das? My intention is not to be rude, or to imply that your not welcome or should go somewhere else(i don't wish you to go away) but instead of changing the rules on Das to suit you better(when it has been fine the way it is, for the people that play here) doesn't it seem more logical to find somewhere that suits you better?

Fair enough. Occasionally, I do log off bored and consider reinstalling NWN1, to be honest, but every server has moments that are fun and some that are not so lively. On the one hand, I've been on some "quest trains" with higher levels once or twice with precious little IC interaction... usually I'll drop out between quests when I get too bored. It would help if I weren't average at roleplaying and would engage other characters better, I suppose.

On the other hand, I had some really great encounters right when I first started, with players that got my character involved in different ways, and (in one case) got him into numerous situations that resulted in fun pvp. That was what made me stay. I haven't seen much of those characters in two weeks or so now, which I find discouraging when I do have time to log on.

This having been said, it's possible to enjoy something and at the same time think it could be improved. If Das2 changes in any way to encourage roleplay more, I would really want to see it changed in ways which I have seen become successful to that end. People go with what they know.

As far as "who" wants something to change, the DMs stated a desire to see more roleplay on Das2. I don't know how serious they are about it. I do know that in order to see change, you have to start doing things differently.

[Peregrinus]

ToC, you seem to be missing that we have continually mentioned that RPers do get rewarded. They get rewarded by being the ones remembered, they get rewarded as the people who get IC political power. They get their name on the map (and I'm not speaking with hyperbole here, that's actually happened), zones permanently changed, dungeons wiped out for good, towns built and roads laid. They drive off the hordes of enemies, become Barons, restore the monarchy, stop plagues, build hospitals, bear shards, start rebellions and save the Prince. These are the rewards and things RPs accomplish, and every single thing on this list I can name names for. None of these things powergamers can accomplish, none of them. They get their mechanical power, RPs get to be the ones who actually move the story forward and change the setting for better or worse. Simply because you've not seen this in your short time here doesn't mean it hasn't happened. RPers have to work for their rewards just like powergamers, but their things often take more time and require more active DM attention.

Further, you claim restrictions foster better RP. I also have to point out that most heavy RP servers in NWN2 have imploded after a few years. Dasaria 2 has been around since launch with their formula, and has been successful. Meanwhile the more restrictive servers have come and gone. Perhaps while they're here they have better RP, but when they're gone? Dasaria has been here for a long time, why should drastic changes be made to a successful formula that has lasted while other servers have come and gone? I'm not willing to risk a change to something that's proven to be a failure just because "it might work this time." I know that if all your suggestions were taken, I would leave Dasaria, as it would have become everything I despise about the so-called "heavy RP" servers that are more about enforcing a certain code of behavior than allowing people to have the freedom to enjoy themselves.

Your entire attitude about this simply screams "role-players are better than everyone" in this discussion. Why should people who are playing have to keep quite near you as to not ruin your immersion? You can always move your conversation elsewhere. You can always simply ignore them. If they are simply talking OOC near you, they're not harming you in any way shape or form. Respect cuts both ways, requiring them to shut up when you're around is by far worse than them talking OOC while around you so long as they're not directly harassing you, which is a different issue entirely.

Dasaria has always been about inclusion, not exclusion. Many of the ideas you're pushing in this thread are exclusionary in nature. The inclusiveness nature of Dasaria has built a solid community that has withstood years, while many of the more restrictive servers have come and gone.

As to application and such, I;m also impatient. I remember the last time the DM team did anything involving applications (a policy which still stands, by the way) and it often takes them a while to get back to people on those. Applications for PrCs would only bog them down with more work and either simply become a rubber stamp process that means nothing. Also, I know that I dislike having to wait on having to do things for my characters, why would other people be any different. This idea (along with most of the ones I have problems with) seem more oriented towards excluding a segment of the population you dislike than encouraging RP.

As to your attempt to twist what an Ad Hominen was in this case, you were using it as a way to attempt to discredit my views. There's no issue of personal bias here, I have been pointing out flaws in your arguments, and you responded by trying to discredit my position by discrediting my standing here as a heavy roleplayer. There are any number of similar arguments I could make about you and your positions, but I've refrained because it's bad form and because it's more constructive to have an actual discussion. You want people to respect you, then respect them. Further, I don't "casually RP" when I quest, I try to ensure as much RP as possible both via emoting actions and talking while fights are going on (sometimes to the detriment of the actual fight. :/), to talking, to RPing healing party members, etc.

While I agree that changes could be made to encourage RP, I think that many of your more drastic suggestions, which are what you know, will in the end destroy Dasaria.

[izzul]

i believe in the long discussion i manage to understand what is your point here mr Twist of Caine..to encourage RP and thinking about giving some and only a bit Xp or items for Rper....which makes the story more interesting right..?

and the fairness between player who go kills orc gets grinding items and stuff and RP er only get to waste their time talking..?

let me give some pointers and some thoughts about this..

the server is hardcore difficulty at first and also stated that dungeons shouldnt be soloed so thats why some people when they are in quest trains they tend to become serious and talk ooc and only small IC to manage the party efficiency to make sure none die and all are safe and sound..it doesnt mean that they are not good RP er..maybe they are but its the mode that they on which is serious mode...not all are very talented that can make two task in one time, while killing orc and type can make for death sometimes and burden the party..and some are crawling using keyboards..not fast writing like you..its for the party efficiency.that is why some small parties RP less than big parties because the atmosphere is different.and we must cope with the situation not the situation cope with us.


not all people online at the same time makes the time very very valuable..if for say in one day i online only once for 2 hours..in 2 hours i must have a target..its either to increase this character to another lvl,transfer items,RP,or do anything..and you must understand within 2 hours, 45 minutes is gone to find people to questing with and the hurrying makes them tends to quest train rather than RP.dont blame people who have limited time for not RPing,they just seems to RP in different situation and time(this i will explain to you later). you on the other hand have unlimited amount of time surely wants to RP more and can spend more creativity and thoughts towards that,instead others are thinking about the time they have..


then the limited online time solution is factions and clan and attachments and also duty..for instance, a player wants to RP but dont have time as much as the others..he will tend to enter a faction and also at least a common group or a common mind setting people to RP with..dont say that the Guard who patrol cear does not like to RP when he doesnt talk to you but if you enter the guards faction,u might spend hours with him discussing the efficiency of guards in cear. its a duty and willing to RP in different situation means that you must have something to RP with..its the same in Real Life, you talk more when meeting old friends rather than new ones..and in working real life you tend to discuss serious matter more rather than useless chatting...a boss of a company will spend hours talking and discussing about the company with his colleague rather than talk with friends in restaurant..when you go play football in the field you are more to kicking the ball and think about how to score and defend rather than talking with everyone..the RP in dasaria is not merely a normal chatting..it is more than that which includes duties,responsibilities,factions,and big events..with limited time logging in..and they do this without asking for xp and items..they are willingly RPing and talk for hours without asking for reward..thats the essence in RP.. for instance the guards will have meeting and will RP for more if they see something wrong in their line of duties.


i believe here there is nothing wrong with the system which they cope to whatever given to them not the system cope with whatever they want. same in real life.if its hard to talk to someone who likes to do only work all day..try to talk to him about his work and you will be surprised to hear what he has in his mind...i believe you should try different approach in RP ing..try some factions and you will be surprise what RP that they will have for you..might even have full hands to cover all your duties..


here i state that try a bit harder mate..in my experience, people will RP more if they spend time more with the other guy..if its the first time partying maybe there is nothing to talk about and straight to quest train.but if you spend two or three times with the same minded,same ideology,same attitude people, you will be very happy to see that the attitude towards you are different each day.same also in real life..


also i do not mean to offend you in any way but i think this is a simple matter..just think it this way..i have 2 hours to logg in..i want to RP or questing..when i enter i found out that my faction mate is there..then i talk to him about so many things that i do not realize that it is exceeding the time..then i enter a party which i dont really know any of the guys and dont know what to talk about..i prefer keep quiet rather than talk too much..and the next time i party with the same group i have some more things to say than before..i cannot force myself to talk things beyond my knowledge and expectation...this is RP in different time and situation based on encounter and it is very parallel with real life.


put yourself in duties,responsibility,and you will see how many people RP with you differently..even if they dont have time,maybe they will tend to leave questing train and choose to RP with you more..


lastly there are few people who likes to chat and talk all day in town..i believe they are the ones helping the people who has same interest with them..still they do it willingly without asking for any reward..if you wish to RP with these people..its not a problem..but people have the ability to choose who they RP with,what they RP, and when they RP it..

[superpoweredchimp]

Going off the the original poster of this thread (who is a DM), I am to understand that this thread is about giving players the opportunity to suggest how to bring about more RP on Dasaria. Which is exactly what Twist of Cain is doing. However, some of the posters in this thread want hardly anything at all to change, they want to ENFORCE this server to remain casual. Now, if the DMs didn't want to see change... why would we be having this discussion? Keep in mind, just because you don't agree with someone's viewpoint, doesn't mean they're not entitled to it. Twist of Cain logs on frequently, and engages himself in both RP and dungeoning.

So, where I'm at is basically where Atharin is at. He pretty much nailed it. Last year, I spent nearly every day on NWN2, and only about 1/40th to 1/50th of that time on Dasaria.

Why should I spend 40 minutes in Dasaria looking for someone who is willing to interact ICly with me, when I can jump into any random roleplay server where roleplaying is taken for granted?

And that's exactly it. Minus a couple of things. You don't need to enforce people to stay in character, and you don't need to take anything away from the people that don't RP. I spent my time on servers where role play just happened. They weren't hardcore. RP wasn't enforced. People roleplay on those servers because they just want to. Hell, people weren't even given RP XP and they roleplayed.

So why am I still on Dasaria, then? Well, I don't know. Maybe it's because I hope to see what I saw in Dasaria when I first joined years ago. Nearly everyone RP'd at that time, and you could turn every corner and find something going on. But the beauty of it all was that you still had the balance of RP and action. To me, being the server that wants to be open to both styles of play means having a balance between both, with a favor in RP. People will come to RP, and when they want to earn some XP/levels, they will go out and enjoy the quests and dungeons, typically RPing their way along. But, as Atharin mentioned earlier, and as many people have been noticing since day 1 of Dasaria 2, there are a lot of 'WoW-like' players that come here. They're focused on the action aspect of Dasaria, and may try their hand at subtle, and goofy "RP."

There's really not that much of a difference between Dasaria and the RP servers that I've played on that have much more RP going on. They don't enforce RP, they have grinding areas, they weren't "hardcore." So, I really don't see small little changes affecting much. As a player who's been around for over 7 years, I can see a need for change. As it was said before:

Perhaps it is time to reconsider some archaic policies that were set in a different era and a different game, with different players and a much different situation?

[ChikenKannon]

Powergamers are not an enemy that needs to be displaced. They are people, like you or I, who are playing to have fun. Simply because they play differently than you or I is that reason to limit the fun they can have? They are not harming anyone with their playstyle or the fact they have the highest AC or the highest Hide/Ms, let them have their fun, they're not complaining about you RPing and saying you shouldn't, why should you be against them getting together, running the dungeons, getting good loot and making powerful characters? And has been pointed out, powergamers are not the ones who leave their mark on the server history, they will fall by the wayside forgotten, while it is the RPers who are remembered and their stories live on. The IC history of Dasaria is full of player characters, I'd even go so far as to say close to 75% of the server's history is based off of player RP.

I will argue against that. Powergamers (And lets make it clear: When I refer to powergamers, I refer to players who don't roleplay, and generally play the game like this is some kind of free WoW) are the enemy of roleplayers. Because they don't add anything to the server their playing on. They are in essence, PC NPCs adding nothing. For the most part they don't bother me, until the difficulty of quests/npcs/tasks are increased BECAUSE there are powergamers out there who are taking apart dungeons built for groups. It hurts the casual players, it hurts roleplayers and it doesn't help.

You said it yourself, the server's history for the most part is based off of player RP.

I also have to point out that most heavy RP servers in NWN2 have imploded after a few years. Dasaria 2 has been around since launch with their formula

Remember the year long stretch of inactivity? See the sundered numbers we have right now in normal play from day to day? We have a small number of roleplayers, the whole point of this thread was so that we can get some roleplayers joining the server. (I recommend switching us to RP category)

SPEAKING OF GETTING ROLEPLAYERS INTO THE SERVER

Why haven't we moved to the roleplay category? Don't change the rules, don't adjust player moral, just put us in the place that players looking for RP look for.

So why am I still on Dasaria, then? Well, I don't know. Maybe it's because I hope to see what I saw in Dasaria when I first joined years ago. Nearly everyone RP'd at that time, and you could turn every corner and find something going on. But the beauty of it all was that you still had the balance of RP and action. To me, being the server that wants to be open to both styles of play means having a balance between both, with a favor in RP. People will come to RP, and when they want to earn some XP/levels, they will go out and enjoy the quests and dungeons, typically RPing their way along. But, as Atharin mentioned earlier, and as many people have been noticing since day 1 of Dasaria 2, there are a lot of 'WoW-like' players that come here. They're focused on the action aspect of Dasaria, and may try their hand at subtle, and goofy "RP."

[Peregrinus]

lol... Dasaria goes through phases folks, I thought y'all'd know this by now. People's activity levels wax and wane due to real life circumstances, getting new games, etc. Now, consider who's been arguing for things not to change: Vahene, Gobb, and myself most vocally here. We've seen this all before, we know that in a month or two things will pick back up, things will get more RP intense and the story will move forward. This is merely a lull, they happen from time to time and can last anywhere from a couple of weeks to a few months. The last major lull took place about two years ago, and the DM's idea there wasn't adopting world altering policies, no, they set up weekly RP groups.

Now we have another lull and the new people are here saying that drastic changes need to be made. Those of us who have been here in the long term are arguing that we shouldn't change because we know that this too shall pass. Yes, minor changes can be made to tweak and improve things, nobody is arguing that. Yes, roleplayers should get some specific rewards that would be only available to them. But these drastic changes are not needed. Heck, changing Dasaria's category from "Persistent World" to "Role Play" might even be appropriate (though, frankly, I don't know what the distinction is), and Dasaria has always been listed under Persistent World, we're not arguing against change because we're against change, we're arguing against changes that don't need to be made because we know that they are not necessary.

As to the DM who posted this, it's only one DM's opinion. I've talked to other DMs on the matter, and their opinions are as varied as ours. So stop throwing the "well this was posted by the DM so it's gotta be true. That's a logical fallacy called an "Appeal to Authority," and is especially egregious in this case because none of the DMs have truly expressed an opinion on the matter, one merely asked for feedback.

Also, nice try to twist my opinion on the idea of enforcing RP into an attempt of those with my opinion to "enforce" a casual atmosphere. Sorry, words do not work that way. Enforcement means having to take proactive action against, I'm not asking for any action to be taken by the DMs or staff to enforce a casual atmosphere, though others are asking them to create rules (that they would then have to maintain) to create a RP environment. To put this into real world terms, some people are asking for a dress code, while others of us are saying that there is no need for one. To say that those arguing against a dress code are demanding that no dress code be enforced is simply absurd. All we've been saying is that the burden of immersion is on the player, not the other players and not the staff, and that demanding staff make sure that the other players aren't breaking your immersion is the wrong track to take.

Now, I've been busy rebutting others opinions, and likely haven't offered suggestions of my own, so I'm going to offer a few:

• Give actual item rewards for long story-arcs people have been involved with. These need not be necessarily statistically more powerful than actual loot, but having a custom item, and having a story of how you got it is a big thing for players and encourages people to become involved in the ongoing stories and to RP through them. This used to be the normal modus operandi for Dasaria, bring it back.
• Start new weekly RP groups. These groups became the core of much of the 2009 Dasaria plotlines. The core of the Argentum Vigilo, the Requiem Order and the Brigands all come from the old weekly groups. This was a huge success, and the lapse of these groups are a major reason for the laps of ongoing RP in my mind. There are also RP groups that meet weekly still, despite not having a regular DM, engage them.
• Set up events that involve multiple plotlines and draw people into them. The DMs know what many of the PCs are after, put the keys to those plotlines where paths will intersect. That will ensure RP and possibly encourage faction conflict. The meta-plot of saving the Prince was interesting because of how different groups intersected unexpectedly. Sadly, some folks became to possessive of the plot and cut other folks out of it when they shouldn't have, which made things seem a bit unfair to others, and rightly so.
• Forward the main plot for Lochwar's sake. Zumen has been skirmishing us for to long now, give people a target and watch them go after it.
• Recruit new DMs. The DM staff is pretty constantly stretched to thin. Get some new blood who's not oriented towards building but rather towards RP and storyline.
• Draft PCs who have characters with reputations to help liven up RP circumstances or to act as special mission quest givers. Think of how cool it may be to new players to encounter one of the well knows characters, be asked to do a mission for them and have the DMs then be involved in that quest (this could work as a cool hook for a weekly group). I'd do this for free, simply because I enjoy seeing other people have fun, but give small cookies to the big names if you have to. It hooks new players/characters up with the established players and helps get them settled and connected to the larger community.
• Bring back the weekly groups. Yes, I consider this important enough to bring up twice.

Players also need to go out and find RP. Standing around N.Cear won't net you RP often, I know that when I'm actually doing serious stuff IC, I'm nowhere near N.Cear, usually I'm in Lendose or Ravenwatch or blasting Canas' minions somewhere in between; there's a war on you know, and you're sitting around on your laurels while some of us our out protecting your lazy scheming butts from Canas' wrath. Players can also set up weekly groups to RP without support from the staff. Right now the AV meets Friday nights at 8 PM EST, we don't have a regular DM, but we still meet, roleplay, and do things.

At the end of the day, sitting her debating about what could or could not be done is blinding folks to the fact that you could be out organizing and fixing this problem by yourselves. In the time this thread has been active, a weekly group could have been formed and started meeting. An IC meeting of powerful clerics been arranged to discuss how to deal with the Canite heretics could have happened. A secretive group could have met for the first time to discuss how to overthrow Pontius' cruel reign of Cear. A group of young hero-worshiping adventurers could have met and petitioned the Prince for Knighthood and a chance to make names for themselves. An evil cult of Culnulites could meet and plot the demise those who oppose them. A group of Fleetmen could meet to discuss the growing lawlessness and what to do about it. None of these ideas take DM aid, just a few posts on the forums and you can get the ball started. So, my challenge to everyone who's crying out for change: change yourselves first. Step up and start something. Stop demanding that the DMs put more effort into this than you're willing to. You want to see roleplay, go make it happen, and stop blaming others. Take responsibility for your own enjoyment, and don't blame things not being your perfect ideal and claim others need to change to accommodate you. There is roleplay going on, there are plots going on, go out and find them, join in and have fun.

And always keep in mind the winged scorpion-tailed lizard's signature:

It's just a game.

[Redleafe]

lol... Dasaria goes through phases folks, I thought y'all'd know this by now. People's activity levels wax and wane due to real life circumstances, getting new games, etc. Now, consider who's been arguing for things not to change: Vahene, Gobb, and myself most vocally here. We've seen this all before, we know that in a month or two things will pick back up, things will get more RP intense and the story will move forward. This is merely a lull, they happen from time to time and can last anywhere from a couple of weeks to a few months. The last major lull took place about two years ago, and the DM's idea there wasn't adopting world altering policies, no, they set up weekly RP groups.

Now we have another lull and the new people are here saying that drastic changes need to be made. Those of us who have been here in the long term are arguing that we shouldn't change because we know that this too shall pass. Yes, minor changes can be made to tweak and improve things, nobody is arguing that. Yes, roleplayers should get some specific rewards that would be only available to them. But these drastic changes are not needed. Heck, changing Dasaria's category from "Persistent World" to "Role Play" might even be appropriate (though, frankly, I don't know what the distinction is), and Dasaria has always been listed under Persistent World, we're not arguing against change because we're against change, we're arguing against changes that don't need to be made because we know that they are not necessary.

As to the DM who posted this, it's only one DM's opinion. I've talked to other DMs on the matter, and their opinions are as varied as ours. So stop throwing the "well this was posted by the DM so it's gotta be true. That's a logical fallacy called an "Appeal to Authority," and is especially egregious in this case because none of the DMs have truly expressed an opinion on the matter, one merely asked for feedback.

Also, nice try to twist my opinion on the idea of enforcing RP into an attempt of those with my opinion to "enforce" a casual atmosphere. Sorry, words do not work that way. Enforcement means having to take proactive action against, I'm not asking for any action to be taken by the DMs or staff to enforce a casual atmosphere, though others are asking them to create rules (that they would then have to maintain) to create a RP environment. To put this into real world terms, some people are asking for a dress code, while others of us are saying that there is no need for one. To say that those arguing against a dress code are demanding that no dress code be enforced is simply absurd. All we've been saying is that the burden of immersion is on the player, not the other players and not the staff, and that demanding staff make sure that the other players aren't breaking your immersion is the wrong track to take.

Now, I've been busy rebutting others opinions, and likely haven't offered suggestions of my own, so I'm going to offer a few:

• Give actual item rewards for long story-arcs people have been involved with. These need not be necessarily statistically more powerful than actual loot, but having a custom item, and having a story of how you got it is a big thing for players and encourages people to become involved in the ongoing stories and to RP through them. This used to be the normal modus operandi for Dasaria, bring it back.
• Start new weekly RP groups. These groups became the core of much of the 2009 Dasaria plotlines. The core of the Argentum Vigilo, the Requiem Order and the Brigands all come from the old weekly groups. This was a huge success, and the lapse of these groups are a major reason for the laps of ongoing RP in my mind. There are also RP groups that meet weekly still, despite not having a regular DM, engage them.
• Set up events that involve multiple plotlines and draw people into them. The DMs know what many of the PCs are after, put the keys to those plotlines where paths will intersect. That will ensure RP and possibly encourage faction conflict. The meta-plot of saving the Prince was interesting because of how different groups intersected unexpectedly. Sadly, some folks became to possessive of the plot and cut other folks out of it when they shouldn't have, which made things seem a bit unfair to others, and rightly so.
• Forward the main plot for Lochwar's sake. Zumen has been skirmishing us for to long now, give people a target and watch them go after it.
• Recruit new DMs. The DM staff is pretty constantly stretched to thin. Get some new blood who's not oriented towards building but rather towards RP and storyline.
• Draft PCs who have characters with reputations to help liven up RP circumstances or to act as special mission quest givers. Think of how cool it may be to new players to encounter one of the well knows characters, be asked to do a mission for them and have the DMs then be involved in that quest (this could work as a cool hook for a weekly group). I'd do this for free, simply because I enjoy seeing other people have fun, but give small cookies to the big names if you have to. It hooks new players/characters up with the established players and helps get them settled and connected to the larger community.
• Bring back the weekly groups. Yes, I consider this important enough to bring up twice.

Players also need to go out and find RP. Standing around N.Cear won't net you RP often, I know that when I'm actually doing serious stuff IC, I'm nowhere near N.Cear, usually I'm in Lendose or Ravenwatch or blasting Canas' minions somewhere in between; there's a war on you know, and you're sitting around on your laurels while some of us our out protecting your lazy scheming butts from Canas' wrath. Players can also set up weekly groups to RP without support from the staff. Right now the AV meets Friday nights at 8 PM EST, we don't have a regular DM, but we still meet, roleplay, and do things.

At the end of the day, sitting her debating about what could or could not be done is blinding folks to the fact that you could be out organizing and fixing this problem by yourselves. In the time this thread has been active, a weekly group could have been formed and started meeting. An IC meeting of powerful clerics been arranged to discuss how to deal with the Canite heretics could have happened. A secretive group could have met for the first time to discuss how to overthrow Pontius' cruel reign of Cear. A group of young hero-worshiping adventurers could have met and petitioned the Prince for Knighthood and a chance to make names for themselves. An evil cult of Culnulites could meet and plot the demise those who oppose them. A group of Fleetmen could meet to discuss the growing lawlessness and what to do about it. None of these ideas take DM aid, just a few posts on the forums and you can get the ball started. So, my challenge to everyone who's crying out for change: change yourselves first. Step up and start something. Stop demanding that the DMs put more effort into this than you're willing to. You want to see roleplay, go make it happen, and stop blaming others. Take responsibility for your own enjoyment, and don't blame things not being your perfect ideal and claim others need to change to accommodate you. There is roleplay going on, there are plots going on, go out and find them, join in and have fun.

And always keep in mind the winged scorpion-tailed lizard's signature:

It's just a game.

I wanted to start by saying this post is very well put, and although I don't agree with everything Pere said here I think he encompasses my outlook on things rather well.

I suppose I sit on the fence to the discussions that have gone on the last week or so, I find that for the most part things here within Dasaria are well, things to be added to increase the pleasure is never a bad thing to discuss either.

ToC, I personally am glad to have your presence here on Dasaria, you seem very educated and generally a fair man/women. I think you have made some valid points that we as Dasarians need to reflect on more then sometimes we want to. I hope that at the end of the day you become as engrossed into this place as I have. I have been a member of this community since November of 2001, perhaps this place isn't for everyone but it certainly is for me. I am not the kinda person who is going to say "If you don't like something, leave it be", trust me I like to see current updates and rewards for roleplay, DM events and PvP and the such as much as the next guy. I believe that this place is a constant growing community that needs players who care, little else than that in all honesty.

My opinion varies from people's all the time, I am perfectly ok with that. ToC welcome to Dasaria mate, we need your hand in this masterpiece of ours. Paint your part in this paradise and I'll do my best to be apart of it, just as I'll try my damnedest to be a part of Peregrinus's as well. We all have ideas that are stirring. Veterans and new people alike, this is Dasaria and it is what it is because of us. That part of the formula is never going to change.

Like Pere said...

There is roleplay going on, there are plots going on, go out and find them, join in and have fun.

[ChikenKannon]

To put this into real world terms, some people are asking for a dress code, while others of us are saying that there is no need for one. To say that those arguing against a dress code are demanding that no dress code be enforced is simply absurd.

No, it isn't absurd. Saying you don't want the casual play harmed, means you want casual play instead of slightly enforced play. You're not asking for action to be taken to enforce casual atmosphere, because it already IS a casual atmosphere. If you say no to every idea that would take away casual atmosphere, you are enforcing casual atmosphere indirectly.

Those of us who have been here in the long term are arguing that we shouldn't change because we know that this too shall pass.

There have been too many people I know leaving because of lack of RP. It's not just the segment you play with. Long lulls of inactivity; is a bad thing. A VERY bad thing.

The last major lull took place about two years ago, and the DM's idea there wasn't adopting world altering policies, no, they set up weekly RP groups.

Yes. And now we're having a problem with the weekly RP groups. Originally everyone was excited because it was possible to get picked up by a DM. But now we've got players who play one day a week, in their own little world, and are detached from the average casual player wandering out in Dasaria. Why weekly groups? You need DMs to run weekly groups, if we need more DM support in order to handle running weekly groups. We're trying to pull AWAY from the DMs so that we can get roleplay going without a DM being required to be there. If we get more DMs to support weekly groups, why not just have DM's starting spontaneous RP more often? And might I refer you to....

None of these ideas take DM aid, just a few posts on the forums and you can get the ball started. So, my challenge to everyone who's crying out for change: change yourselves first. Step up and start something. Stop demanding that the DMs put more effort into this than you're willing to.

It's just a game, and I want to play it with other roleplayers. And so do other people or else this thread wouldn't exist.

[ChikenKannon]

New post because I just realized the obsurdity. Important so I'm reposting some stuff I said in my post.

# Give actual item rewards for long story-arcs people have been involved with. These need not be necessarily statistically more powerful than actual loot, but having a custom item, and having a story of how you got it is a big thing for players and encourages people to become involved in the ongoing stories and to RP through them. This used to be the normal modus operandi for Dasaria, bring it back.
# Start new weekly RP groups. These groups became the core of much of the 2009 Dasaria plotlines. The core of the Argentum Vigilo, the Requiem Order and the Brigands all come from the old weekly groups. This was a huge success, and the lapse of these groups are a major reason for the laps of ongoing RP in my mind. There are also RP groups that meet weekly still, despite not having a regular DM, engage them.
# Set up events that involve multiple plotlines and draw people into them. The DMs know what many of the PCs are after, put the keys to those plotlines where paths will intersect. That will ensure RP and possibly encourage faction conflict. The meta-plot of saving the Prince was interesting because of how different groups intersected unexpectedly. Sadly, some folks became to possessive of the plot and cut other folks out of it when they shouldn't have, which made things seem a bit unfair to others, and rightly so.
# Forward the main plot for Lochwar's sake. Zumen has been skirmishing us for to long now, give people a target and watch them go after it.
# Recruit new DMs. The DM staff is pretty constantly stretched to thin. Get some new blood who's not oriented towards building but rather towards RP and storyline.
# Draft PCs who have characters with reputations to help liven up RP circumstances or to act as special mission quest givers. Think of how cool it may be to new players to encounter one of the well knows characters, be asked to do a mission for them and have the DMs then be involved in that quest (this could work as a cool hook for a weekly group). I'd do this for free, simply because I enjoy seeing other people have fun, but give small cookies to the big names if you have to. It hooks new players/characters up with the established players and helps get them settled and connected to the larger community.

None of these ideas take DM aid, just a few posts on the forums and you can get the ball started. So, my challenge to everyone who's crying out for change: change yourselves first. Step up and start something. Stop demanding that the DMs put more effort into this than you're willing to.

You've got a DM, you're fine. 5 players once a week with a DM is a great time, I'd love to have that. But I want more, I want to RP with everyone I can, I want to be connected. Your points for not relying on DM's all require relying on DM's, one of them is "Get more DM's". Our community isn't big, this is why we have lapse's, we lose 2-3 players and BANG we're grinded to a halt.

Ideas that will help increase serverwide RP
- Move us to the roleplay category, people looking for roleplay servers will look in the roleplay category
- Have the events that happen happen around Cear, more players in one area makes people interact with eachother
- Give players a Scrying tool, let players find eachother and interacting, we need people interacting!

[Mad Dog Reno]

Hmmmm im been here over year and i play a lot in Dasaria (least 12 hour/every day what is too damn much ) and seen much in this time but still i LOVE the place. Some "oldies" have left and and come back, lots off "newbies" come and go. Reason to this have been maybe RL too busy or get in new game but again its normal? Then i see here that some is complaining something is maybe wrong in they mind mind but ever seem them in game (well difrent timeline maybe one reason)? Some even write nice long stories in here but again never seen them making nice stories in the game? Some have build maybe something in some area but again never seen in game? So one of my point is that this Forum and game it self is two diffrent world? If want something done in game you need be in there and make them? Suprising is that most who play in Dasaria have not ever read forum? So stop whining in here and come in game and make them changes what you want so maybe you get other involved too? Damn simple?

PS. Not be offended about this because its only my simpple opinion.

[ChikenKannon]

Hmmmm im been here over year and i play a lot in Dasaria (least 12 hour/every day what is too damn much ) and seen much in this time but still i LOVE the place. Some "oldies" have left and and come back, lots off "newbies" come and go. Reason to this have been maybe RL too busy or get in new game but again its normal? Then i see here that some is complaining something is maybe wrong in they mind mind but ever seem them in game (well difrent timeline maybe one reason)? Some even write nice long stories in here but again never seen them making nice stories in the game? Some have build maybe something in some area but again never seen in game? So one of my point is that this Forum and game it self is two diffrent world? If want something done in game you need be in there and make them? Suprising is that most who play in Dasaria have not ever read forum? So stop whining in here and come in game and make them changes what you want so maybe you get other involved too? Damn simple?

PS. Not be offended about this because its only my simpple opinion.

Because the population is in a slump, players who would normally rise to the occasion and jump into RP whenever possible have left. The few that remain are either never on, or are only on once per week in their own group. Because new players log in, and then usually disappear in the next week

We're not saying Dasaria should be abandoned, we're not whining, and we're not trying to alienate the 30ish players we still have. We're trying to bring more roleplayers into the server so people don't have to get angry when they log in and see that there are 3 people they can find (and not all of them RP). We're trying to get a system that brings players together more often, and players of all styles of RP.

But the first thing we need to do, is get players on the server. And I mean roleplayers, players who enjoy roleplaying, players who make backstories and bring other players into their stories, players who don't just grind, players who play more than one day a week.


+ Move the server to RP, seriously, why not? Roleplayers look in the Roleplay section.
+ Scrying tool, help players find people to RP with. Makes the world smaller, but keeps the large amount of content for our world still there to explore.
+ Have events deal with Cear. Groups players up, makes it possible for them to interact.

[superpoweredchimp]

lol... Dasaria goes through phases folks, I thought y'all'd know this by now. People's activity levels wax and wane due to real life circumstances, getting new games, etc. Now, consider who's been arguing for things not to change: Vahene, Gobb, and myself most vocally here. We've seen this all before, we know that in a month or two things will pick back up, things will get more RP intense and the story will move forward. This is merely a lull, they happen from time to time and can last anywhere from a couple of weeks to a few months. The last major lull took place about two years ago, and the DM's idea there wasn't adopting world altering policies, no, they set up weekly RP groups.

Pere, if you've actually been logging on for more than a few hours every Friday, you would see that Dasaria is at one of its "peaks" of roleplay. Not exactly a big thing if a DM is requesting for more RP. Again, I invite you to check out an RP server that does not enforce RP. There are no phases, you can find RP at a consistent rate throughout the year. Lulls of inactivity are not a common thing for active NWN2 communities. If some people can't play due to real life issues, then there are plenty of others around to find entertaining RP with. And weakly groups simply aren't needed, and won't help, because they encourage boxed-in RP that has little interaction with anything outside of the group.

Now we have another lull and the new people are here saying that drastic changes need to be made. Those of us who have been here in the long term are arguing that we shouldn't change because we know that this too shall pass.

*Waves.* Hi there. Yes, I've been here for a very long time, too. And watching Dasaria go on a rollercoaster of inactivity to activity is actually pretty saddened, when I remember my first year in Dasaria involved consistent and entertaining roleplay.

Heck, changing Dasaria's category from "Persistent World" to "Role Play" might even be appropriate (though, frankly, I don't know what the distinction is)

The purpose of changing the category isn't to change the "flavor" of the server, but rather put ourselves in a position to attract more roleplayers. PW Story is pretty good if you're a French server, but Dasaria is not a French server. And, do keep in mind, when I say 'roleplayers,' I don't mean people who just exclusively roleplay. I have seen some excellent roleplayers on these RP servers have some of the cheesiest powerbuilds. And that's exactly how I picture Dasaria's "balance" of RP and action to be, meaning players who are great at RP, yet will still want to find something to bash from time to time.

As to the DM who posted this, it's only one DM's opinion. I've talked to other DMs on the matter, and their opinions are as varied as ours. So stop throwing the "well this was posted by the DM so it's gotta be true. That's a logical fallacy called an "Appeal to Authority," and is especially egregious in this case because none of the DMs have truly expressed an opinion on the matter, one merely asked for feedback.

Asylum mentioned that it was talked about over in the DM forum, so I figure that it is something they're all thinking about.

Players also need to go out and find RP. Standing around N.Cear won't net you RP often, I know that when I'm actually doing serious stuff IC, I'm nowhere near N.Cear, usually I'm in Lendose or Ravenwatch or blasting Canas' minions somewhere in between;

Yes, not all RP has to happen in Cear, of course. But with... what is it, 250+ areas, and no scrying tool, how easy is it to really find RP sprawled out across the server? Most of that RP is going to start off in Cear. And, while most of your serious stuff may going on outside of Cear, doesn't mean that serious stuff can't happen within it. In fact, a lot of the serious stuff that I do happens right in Cear, right under everyone's pretty little noses.

An IC meeting of powerful clerics been arranged to discuss how to deal with the Canite heretics could have happened. A secretive group could have met for the first time to discuss how to overthrow Pontius' cruel reign of Cear. A group of young hero-worshiping adventurers could have met and petitioned the Prince for Knighthood and a chance to make names for themselves. An evil cult of Culnulites could meet and plot the demise those who oppose them. A group of Fleetmen could meet to discuss the growing lawlessness and what to do about it. None of these ideas take DM aid, just a few posts on the forums and you can get the ball started. So, my challenge to everyone who's crying out for change: change yourselves first. Step up and start something. Stop demanding that the DMs put more effort into this than you're willing to. You want to see roleplay, go make it happen, and stop blaming others. Take responsibility for your own enjoyment, and don't blame things not being your perfect ideal and claim others need to change to accommodate you. There is roleplay going on, there are plots going on, go out and find them, join in and have fun.

And some of these things were probably happening! Have you been around much lately to see? Last time I saw you on, you were on with your little Argentum group, which ran off to RP by themselves. But yes, there is some RP going on now. The problem I'm seeing is that it is less abundant than it used to be, back when PW Story was hardly overlooked.

And always keep in mind the winged scorpion-tailed lizard's signature:

It's just a game.

That's true! It is just a game (well, and a community, too). So what's wrong with changing some things about the game in hopes to see improvement?

[stoned-raider]

What Atharin said (ans chimp quoted) is just it: Why log in and look for someone willing to RP, when you can just log into a random RP-server where RP is taken for granted?
I was lured back to Dasaria by a high player count, only to find out that most of the time, I had no clue where people were. And if I ran across another PC, chances were good he would just storm through town, buffed and weapons drawn running towards the nearest dungeon ... and seemingly not interested in any form of IC interaction. Of course this was not the norm, but it happened in probably half the occasions I was lucky enough to find another PC. As for the not finding people, there is an easy solution: A scrying tool
For the other "problem", a lot of solutions were offered in the course of this thread, some fitting for Dasaria, some probably not so much. Those solutions seem to have worked well for other servers though. Let me tell you about a server that I play on now. The ruleset is very strict, and the punishment draconian (quite the irony). You can get docked xp / lose levels / get banned for a crapload of things - for all those little things that could possible disturb the RP of others or general athmosphere of the server. Like Metagaming, constant OOC chatter, ignoring NPCs, harrassing others, use of power-emotes or godmodding, and the list goes on ... Most of those would get you banned quickly. But guess what? It never happens there! The server went live last September and only one player has been banned so far.
Furthermore it does not try to exclude Powergamers at all, it welcomes them with open arms just like Dasaria does and always did, they are just ask to follow some basic rules (In essence they are all just extensions of the one golden rule: Use common sense in whatever you do). And the inclusion works out just fine there, a lot better than here I daresay. It works because both Powergamers and RPers are following the same (and most notably: enforced) rules and guidelines, admittedly rules and guidelines heavily catered towards the RPers.
If you let both groups just do what they want to do it will grant you a higher player count, sure. But it rather creates coexistence than inclusion. Leading towards one server with two seperate communities (with a heavily blurred line between the two of course, no black and white thinking here).
On a final note: Most so called "hardcore RP-PWs" are not as "elitist" and "exclusive" as some here might think (at least not the ones I tried, maybe I was just lucky ). They are just as inviting as Dasaria if you can stick to the rules. They're not telling you how to RP (though some sure do, heh) or to be a master at it, they are just asking you to try to RP, at all times. Which, considering we are talking about RP-servers here, isn't such a bad thing in my book.

My 2 cents again.

[Vahene]

I'm going to continue to repeat myself, apparently, until someone actually believes me. Because right now, there are a handful of people who just aren't listening. People aren't logging on for personal reasons. Not enough time, real lives are busy. Not everything revolves around this game folks. I'm taking a couple of extremely hard classes this quarter - and to be honest, popping on one time a week to RP with AV is about all I can handle at the moment. So please don't make assumptions that everyone is not logging on because some sort of 'lack' of RP because it simply isn't true.

And while we're on the subject, Pere's right. I know this is a lull that will pass. It might not seem like it to the rest of you, but trust me it will. Ask some of the other Das 1 vets who were around towards the end of the 1st game's 'ending' so to speak. We were lucky some nights if we had 5 people online. Maximum. To me, it doesn't matter how many people are around to RP. You can RP with yourself [although gets a tad boring] if you need to. Levels don't make a difference either - so I personally don't see the appeal of the powergamer but if someone wants to grind stuff, I let them. Not my business.

Then again, I primarily RP. I'm near famous for having low-level characters and it's only because of groups that Edana is as high as she is - otherwise she'd still be around 8 or 9, I assure you, instead of 15.

Also, just as an aside. I know Chimp mentioned it, but it needs to be said that if you are playing a character - good or evil - you're free to RP with any faction or group. If Argentum is going dungeoning, we're happy to have you along - especially if you're a cleric, I just want to drop that out there... Your alignment really doesn't make a difference. Heck, Rhode stalks us all the time. And if you're a good-aligned or neutrally-aligned character you might just get our notice that way, especially if you want to join AV. But we don't turn anyone away deliberately. I remember the incident you're talking about Chimp, and your character was standing with a group of drow. Considering we're a good/neutral aligned faction and you're standing with members of an evil race...

K, and her 2 silvers