Mooids or Muids. Whatver you want to call them

[UltimaBoB]

How will this patch stop muids (monk druiids) as one person suggested?

Won't it just help as wildshape cannot be dispelled anymore?

In animal form won't they still get access to flurry of blows and monk AC?

In fact I think monks can still flurry in armor or shield.

[ormane]

How will this patch stop muids (monk druiids) as one person suggested?

Won't it just help as wildshape cannot be dispelled anymore?

In animal form won't they still get access to flurry of blows and monk AC?

In fact I think monks can still flurry in armor or shield.

It's bugged right now that monk still receive their WIS + natural bonus to AC while in armor and using a shield. It allows muids to achieve a ridiculously high AC.

As far as retaining the WIS AC bonus while in wildshape goes: I don't know how it exactly works. I know that druids have always retained their INT/WIS/CHA scores while in wild shape. I've done a small amount of testing myself and it seems that the monk AC bonus does have an effect on the wildshape's AC, but it doesn't seem to be at a 1:1 ratio. Though I could be wrong.

As far as combat modes go, if you activate any combat mode prior to shifting, it will allow you to use that combat mode while in form. However, you cannot activate combat modes while in form and I believe by the same principle you cannot deactivate them either.

The non-bugged stuff doesn't strike me as altogether overpowering as fighters and divine melee types can likely achieve the same or higher AC and AB.

[Michael]

Just tossing out a wild idea, but have you accounted for the AC modifier of the wildshape form?

I don't recall correctly, but I believe the modifier is applied to a natural AC base dependent on the wildshape form...

And.. what's wrong with muids? It's high AC whether shifted or not (heavy armor + shield or wisdom and dex bonus), flurry for shapeshifts, spell casting -while- shapeshifted, good buff spells, decent attack spells, immunity to a LOT of things with the right feat/spells, good AB...

Hey... can we rename the server the Dasarian Grove?

[broncoblitz]

The problem is that its not currently "heavy armor + shield or wisdom and dex bonus" its "heavy armor + shield and wisdom and dex bonus"

That would be the problem.

[Wyvern]

A large part of the druid/monk problem is going away in the next update. And the effect of creating the pseudo broken builds (monk/druid or cleric, pally/sorc, and the rest of them) is that content generally will not be challenging for these sorts of builds. We simply will not cater for the ultimate powerbuilds at the expense of those who aren't so good with the numbers. They will in all likelihood find it too easy. When something is too easy, usually it becomes boring. Yes we could all do it, but most of us aren't interested in that. We absolutely don't discourage power play, but neither is it our focus. The content introduced will be aimed at the majority of the playerbase, and that will be those characters who could be considered "normal". So yes, you could make that butt-kicking Drow RDD/Frenzied beserker, or whatever. But once he is 20th then what? Congratulations, you have beaten the game. So roll a new one and try something different? Maybe kick up your roleplay and really make a difference. Great on both counts I say!

As far as broken abilities, spells, whatever. Some we can fix eventually, others we will have to wait for Obsidian. But I really don't think it rocks the boat too much in the grand scheme of things unless someone decides to go out of their way to abuse the situation at the expense of other players. If that happens, then they wont be a problem for very long.

All in all, I'm pretty laid back about it really.

Just one gamers opinion, thanks for listening.

[ormane]

Just tossing out a wild idea, but have you accounted for the AC modifier of the wildshape form?

It's actually kind of weird. Elephant Hide (sack a shift/day to get a +7 Natural AC bonus) seems to grant some sort of bonus as well. It could be that the +7 AC is higher than the bear form's AC. Or that it stacks. I know with buffs right now, I can push my AC to 31 in bear form and it starts off at around 21. I'll run some more thorough tests later.

And.. what's wrong with muids? It's high AC whether shifted or not (heavy armor + shield or wisdom and dex bonus), flurry for shapeshifts, spell casting -while- shapeshifted, good buff spells, decent attack spells, immunity to a LOT of things with the right feat/spells, good AB...

Hey... can we rename the server the Dasarian Grove?

Well, the whole monk AC stuff is bugged right now. They shouldn't be getting the bonus while in armor. Hopefully 1.04 will fix this.

Druids start off with medium armor prof. not heavy. And armor (like all equipment that benefits AC and AB) doesn't factor in at all when shifted. The spellcasting while shapeshifted requires a feat.

I wouldn't say druids (muids included) are the dominant class in Dasaria. I have seen many more clerics than druids.

Overall, in addtion, I think clerics have the upper hand in most cases though druids (they have access to Energy Drain whereas druids do not. They also have access to Harm at an earlier level). That is not to say that clerics and druids do dominate most vanilla classes, because that seems to be the case.

[StormRunner]

I can't understand the RP behind a Muid. The monk is often dedicated to the extreme to his training and personal growth while the Druid (also often) is part of a large society with the perservance and balance of nature at heart. How can these two principles possibly mesh? This isn't supposed to be an accusation, but rather a cry for an answer from the people playing this combination.

Perhaps I should say that I'm somewhat of a puritan when it comes to how the rp-specific classes are played. Anything I can say can, and probably will, be blatantly disregarded.

[Eowade]

I can't understand the RP behind a Muid. The monk is often dedicated to the extreme to his training and personal growth while the Druid (also often) is part of a large society with the perservance and balance of nature at heart. How can these two principles possibly mesh? This isn't supposed to be an accusation, but rather a cry for an answer from the people playing this combination.

Perhaps I should say that I'm somewhat of a puritan when it comes to how the rp-specific classes are played. Anything I can say can, and probably will, be blatantly disregarded.

http://xriffraffx.buzznet.com/user/video/play/1045/

[ormane]

My story has to do with my character leaving the monestary because of lack of discipline among other things. Then travelling through the wilderness, avoiding civilization for several years, for unspecified reasons at this point, led him to appreciate nature's sytem and law.

I think people will use mechanics to shape character growth and character growth to shape mechanics. I think you can have interesting interactions with either people, as long as they are into roleplaying.

[broncoblitz]

My story has to do with my character leaving the monestary because of lack of discipline among other things. Then travelling through the wilderness, avoiding civilization for several years, for unspecified reasons at this point, led him to appreciate nature's sytem and law.

I think people will use mechanics to shape character growth and character growth to shape mechanics. I think you can have interesting interactions with either people, as long as they are into roleplaying.

If your character lacked the discipline to become a monk, wouldn't that just mean he would be a fighter focused in unarmed combat? If you lack the discipline to become a monk that doesnt preclude you from learning aspects of it like unarmed combat and such.

However, you chose to add monk because it added something significant to your build. I am not saying this is a bad thing, however taking a level of fighter or two and taking unarmed fighting feats could have just as easily been the roleplay equivalent of what you are suggesting.

[UltimaBoB]

Let's be clear. Monk AC and Armor was not really a Muid issue. At least less so than with cleric comboes etc...

Sure, some druids liked to not shift into wildshape - or not do so until later levels. Yes, Monk AC + Shield/Armor helped them GET to Level X or Y. But unlike other Wis AC + armor abusers, they had a legitimate exit point. Once they start fighting in wildshape, Monk AC *LEGITIMATELY* works. It is supposed to and still will after 1.04 AFAIK. What armor you have on doesn't count when shifted.

Flurry has always worked when shifted and apparently still does and will - even if you have to leave it on. Who cares? You want it on.

This patch means Muids will have more wildshape shifts to use for Oaken Resilience and Elephant Hide because dispel will not kick them out of that form anymore and force them to buget and conserve spare wildshape uses. So with 1.03 allowing them Greater Magic Fang while in animal form (think Divine Favor when shifted - only better) and 1.04 protecting them from dispel, Muids get stronger at the high end and lose nothing - just a little help in the early levels.

Currenly Wildshape using Muids are the most powerful builds in Dasaria IMO - edging out even clerics for several reasons:

*Elephant Hide and Tortoise shell "buggily" stack with all IIRC - Hide may not stack with bark or spider skin, but it is +7 ! And Tortoise Shell stacks with anything.

*The max level range right now is 14ish and that is just after Muids get Dire Bear. This is right at the peak of their power band compared to other classes. Clerics will start to even out at higher levels but, it will be close

*Lack of a full range of equipment. Wildshape Druids big disadvantage is that they only merge Armor. But right now, there is very little other classes get from the other gear slots so above all this may be why Muids at level 14ish in Das are currently the big gun.

*Lack of higher end equipment. Part and parcel of the above. Not only are the ancillary gear slots currently underdeveloped at any level, but even the primary gear is not that powerful yet mostly because no one is past 15. Again this plays into Muid hands. A cleric can GMW an adamantine weapon and get enhantment and bypass stoneskin. Then he closes the gap in say an area like the the tower with a Muid - but right now, no such weapon. Nor any weapons with ancillary abilities to capitalize on GMW. This is a hit to melee mages as well compared to druids. No flame weapons either so the Druid's flame weapon spell, which seems to somehow work even in wildshape as far as I can tell, really helps. I also haven't seen a lot of alchemist fire kit. Once/if those become availlable then a lot of the Flame Weapon comparative edge will disappear. Finally, no Keen weapons helps druids relatively as a down side is that the crits suck in wildshape form. But right now, other classes can't get the keen weapons to press their relative advantage. That will change in time too.

*Broken Bonus HP spells. Aid, Greater Heroism and Divine power - big spells for melee mages, bards, and clerics (the primary competitors with Muids) are all broken. When the bonus HP is beaten off the whole spell expires. So competing classes have lost some of their their biggest guns. Meanwhile Druids got extra spells in 1.01, got magic Fang "fixed" in 1.03, and their "broken" spells like Tortoise shell are broken in a "good" way for them.

Even without fixes to their spells, clerics are still pretty close and might well edge Muids out or be on par by levels 18+ once better gear comes around (getting maybe even a decent edge if their spells get fixed). But right now, Muids are king of the hill in Das IMO.

That being said, I'm not sure it matters. I'm just bored and so decided to do some analysis off of what I have seen. I'm new to RP, but I do get the gist - it is not all about power and something always has to be top gun. Why not Muids? But while one should not be fixated by power or the numbers, it never hurts to understand them either IMO.

BTW the one thing that does need fixing IMO and should be nerfed by Das eventually if Obsidian doesn't do it is that all of the Druid natural AC abilities hsould IMO be what was called "effect natural AC" in NWN1 (what you get on ammies) and none of it be true base AC. That way they will not stack. You will take the highest one.

I could also see Flurry being disallowed in wildshape form at some point. But we'll see - that would be an Obsidian thing as I am not sure Das could do anything about that even if they wanted to.

[StormRunner]

I can't understand the RP behind a Muid. The monk is often dedicated to the extreme to his training and personal growth while the Druid (also often) is part of a large society with the perservance and balance of nature at heart. How can these two principles possibly mesh? This isn't supposed to be an accusation, but rather a cry for an answer from the people playing this combination.

Perhaps I should say that I'm somewhat of a puritan when it comes to how the rp-specific classes are played. Anything I can say can, and probably will, be blatantly disregarded.

http://xriffraffx.buzznet.com/user/video/play/1045/

Well.. this ruined my case.

[Wyvern]

I don't think I would play a "Muid" because the name sounds stupid. Like a Moo-id. Sounds like some kind of Dire Cow to me.

[broncoblitz]

Oh no! The Bull has returned!

[ormane]

A novice monk is a monk nonetheless. It requires long-term discipline to continue to train as a monk. To represent this, the monk's focus grants him or her pseudo-magic powers as he or see progresses in training.

A character could be disciplined enough to learn the basics, but not disciplined enough to continue on in the training (e.g. Luke Skywalker might serve as a good example here).

Then again, the fighter explanation is equally plausible. Maybe as a true novice who was only able to pick up on the very basic elements of monk training.

It's not really a subject that is easily and soundly debated.