True Seeing

Elrith · Post by **Elrith** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 2:16 am

I would have to disagree to a point, but I come from a biased pen and paper background of watching our party rogue destroy everything with sneak attacks.

As things are now stealth and invisibility in general do seem rather broken.

However, having completely undetectable stealth is a bad thing.

There are systems in place for you to still get your sneak damage even when they can see you. (flanking, and I believe feint? The way it works in 3.5 is they can do a bluff (feint check) to make them go flat footed.

I do agree that true seeing needs to be fixed (along with a lot of other things).

Loswaith · Post by **Loswaith** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 5:41 am

LOL, I always find these discussions ammusing, simply due to the fact stealth in NWN2, much like NWN1 is basically invisibility anyway.
You can be stealthed anywhere even standing right under that lamp, or beside a fire and not be seen, it is incredibly powerful ability (when working correctly) in NWN, where as in table top it is very simple to counter it.

Having one spell to counter stealth moves it to slightly less power but it is still alot more powerful than in table top gaming.

Stormknife · Post by **Stormknife** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 5:54 am

Except the about half the classes in the game have access to it.

ChikenKannon · Post by **ChikenKannon** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 3:42 pm

Stormknife wrote:Does anyone know if flipping a thief to hostile boosts the sleight of hand DC to 30? It theoretically should, according to the manual.

It does. And I set everyone who know I'm going to steal from them to it so it actually makes it sort of hard to steal items. Also it gives you +10 to spot vrs the hostile.

Tlantl · Post by **Tlantl** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 4:58 pm

Loswaith wrote:LOL, I always find these discussions amusing, simply due to the fact stealth in NWN2, much like NWN1 is basically invisibility anyway.
You can be stealthed anywhere even standing right under that lamp, or beside a fire and not be seen, it is incredibly powerful ability (when working correctly) in NWN, where as in table top it is very simple to counter it.

Having one spell to counter stealth moves it to slightly less power but it is still a lot more powerful than in table top gaming.

I agree here. Were stealth done properly a character would only be able to hide if she were actually hiding, ie. using cover to remain unseen. The spell shouldn't be capable of finding them under these conditions. Hide in plain sight is a supernatural ability conferred by a class, and as such, should be countered by true seeing.

Stormknife · Post by **Stormknife** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 5:37 pm

Not for a ranger it isn't.

Tlantl · Post by **Tlantl** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:00 pm

Stormknife wrote:Not for a ranger it isn't.

Please explain. You don't say what you're talking about, what post you disagree with, or who's opinion prompted your response.

Post by **Vahene** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:46 pm

Tlantl wrote:
Stormknife wrote:Not for a ranger it isn't.
Please explain. You don't say what you're talking about, what post you disagree with, or who's opinion prompted your response.

He might be referring to the fact that Rangers also get HIPS, at level 18 I think? You originally said:

Were stealth done properly a character would only be able to hide if she were actually hiding, ie. using cover to remain unseen. The spell shouldn't be capable of finding them under these conditions. Hide in plain sight is a supernatural ability conferred by a class, and as such, should be countered by true seeing.

Rangers get HIPS as do Shadowdancers.

Plus, Rangers get a bonus for hiding and stealthing outside, I believe.

I don't think True Seeing counters anything. No mage should be able to see a rogue or ranger stealthing, or even any class. However, I do understand why the check is there to balance the stealth issue. If the thieves we have in game are any indication, I think that might be the source for the entire spell. But, that might just be my sarcasm slipping through.

-K

Stormknife · Post by **Stormknife** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 3:21 pm

Tlantl wrote:
Stormknife wrote:Not for a ranger it isn't.
Please explain. You don't say what you're talking about, what post you disagree with, or who's opinion prompted your response.

HIPS is supernatural for assassins and shadowdancers.

It is not supernatural for Rangers. Read the class description.

Guten Raynor · Post by **Guten Raynor** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 12:16 pm

k9burn wrote:Like J4 said its pretty easy to script. According to the core rules, true seeing shouldn't offer any bonus to spot or listen. It only allows you to see past illusions or illusion type effects.

Off the top of my head, I would probably implement it to give the caster the following (and these can all be scripted):

Ultravision
Darkvision
SeeInvisibility
Immunity to Blindness, Phantasmal Killer, Color Spray and Weird (or just the entire illusion school)
+10 to Search checks (to help find traps/secret doors)

But of course, testing all the side effects is quite a project. I'll add this my proposal of spell fixes.

SOB message got deleted:

Basically:

True seeing doesn't show people 'just hiding', but it shows pretty much everything that is not mundane. (magically hidden secret doors, invisible creatures, the Etheral Plane.)

HIPS is Su for rogues, Ex for Rangers. Both of those aren't "just hiding" therefore true seeing should stop them from using HIPS.

Also HIPS for rogues cannot be used in the middle of a town courtyard in broad daylight. (needs shadows within 10 feet to use).

Rangers have similar HIPS restrictions, requiring 'natural terrain.'

Tlantl · Post by **Tlantl** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 12:45 pm

"SOB message got deleted:"

Been there a few times.

As for the rogues getting away with murder, I believe that these people are taking advantage of an exploit in the game engine. As such they should have be concerned with a reprimand or other action by the admin. Sure a pick pocket once in a while is a means of role playing, to empty a player's inventory is plain cheating.

On the subject I hope it is settled one way or another. True seeing is a powerful divination that has been given a use it shouldn't have. If is changed cool if not well I guess we need to live with it.

Post by **Peregrinus** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 6:41 am

Vashan the Hunter wrote:For that matter, True seeing should not only reveal a rogue's where abouts, it should make him drop his entire inventory!

This debate has been going on a long time, just thought I'd bring up this old quote concerning True Seeing.

lankycheese · Post by **lankycheese** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:50 am

Next someone will bring up IGMS.

Gildren · Post by **Gildren** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:25 pm

Playing a character that does use hide, and will use HIPS, it seems to me the discussion on how to change True Seeing is a bit premature. Wait for the afore mention fix that is coming in patch whatever number from Obsidian.

Regarding the use of Pick Pocket, and being someone who could PP but hasn't taken a single skill point in PP, I'm in the group of change it so you can't PP another player. It's just to easy for it to become grief-ing tactic (or interpreted as a grief-ing tactic even if not intended to be so).

Let players PP NPC's and leave the pvp pick pocketing out.

If two players want to role play a pick pocket encounter between each other, use the DMFI dice roller, that way it's all role play, and all consensual.

just my 2 cp.

Eclipse · Post by **Eclipse** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:48 am

Gildren wrote:.If two players want to role play a pick pocket encounter between each other, use the DMFI dice roller, that way it's all role play, and all consensual.

All I have to say is "YAY die rolls!"