True Seeing

[roxydreams]

dont nerf anything.

stop now before you even start. there is another server that has true sight nerfed in NwN1 and now that server is 90% shadowdancers.

at anyone time you get:
15 shadowdancers
3 classes of antoher type.

stop now before you start nerfing everything. there is not supposed to be balance amongst the classes, the classes are made to work together as a team, not against each other. it is how DnD was originally concieved.

this is a warning of the "dont nerf anything" network, if you find you are itching to nerf, it will never stop till you get arguments, yelling, people leaving and horrible posts all over the server. stop now before it becomes a blood shed as in other servers.
this is just a warning.

[The Explorer]

I think a thief should be a very challenging character to play, should have to be inventive and tactical in how they steal. Instead of going on about things as they were in Das I (which by the way some of us like me never played), take whatever you learned from Das I and move on. This is Das II so changes, improvements and new challenges should be the way of things otherwize the newbie's to Das II stand no chance against the Das I
masses.

I don't play a thief but I think thieves should maybe have special pick pocket abilities and have to put skill points in them and have special feats/skills hide etc they can use in dark areas e.g. the goblins place or the rats sewer. If in north Caer, Caer City etc they when standing in a crowd be visibal to everyone shaking a players hand with one hand and stealing from them with the other, using a bump tactic, a distraction tactic etc.

I understand Mages turning invisible but really come on people a thief just turning invisible in the middle of the day in the presence of a crowd get a grip, why should they be able to? It should not be so easy should it?

Also the areas around Ealden's, the other simthys, the Apothicary's etc should be not possible to steal around. I had gone to purchase some wares from Ealden's the other day and when I went into my items menu after to allocate it a slot 4 items had been stolen from me and some of my Coin. Also to add to this; last week I said //AFK phone// whilst outside Mitsy Inn with a group but came back and yet again had been stolen from, that is blatently wrong man thats OOC evil not IC evil, it was not the first time it happened either.

There should be more restrictions on what they can steal as well; they shouldn't be able to steal the items the char has equiped for sure, quest items, the rare stuff that the Char has collected/had crafted for them.

It maybe worth inputing rare paintings e.g. Portraits of the emperor/queen), Jewels etc in various buildings that can be stolen, when stolen the item goes on a guards list with a date of when it when missing and how much the reward is for it's return, they item has to be given to a guard and if the thief themselves try to give it in they are KOS.

[Stormknife]

I understand Mages turning invisible but really come on people a thief just turning invisible in the middle of the day in the presence of a crowd get a grip, why should they be able to? It should not be so easy should it?

They can't. Anyone who has line of sight to you when you activate stealth will still be able to see you unless you have Hide in Plain Sight.

[roxydreams]

i believe he is talking about hips. they can not just "poof i am gone" in the middle of a crowd. the crowd still sees them. and if you say, "well they disguise themselves", um, ok, so they stand there and start putting on makeup, wig, and all and no one notices this? or "they change clothes so you can not follow them". again, no one notices them go naked in the middle of the crowd?

the idea is that HIPS does not work like it does in the 3.5 PnP rules, hence true sight does not either. simply math really. 1+1=2.

HIPS is much more powerful in NwN, soooo, true sight is also. simple.

now, theft. pick pocket is one of the greatest ways to have griefing and problems. see above in many of the posts. please do not post about how "but it isnt really" because if you have one person complaining it may not be, but if you have two or more different people, then it probably is a problem. again, there needs to be some ground rules. otherwise whats the point in playing when everything you own or have gets taken away so easy that you just go "heck with this, it aint worth it".

[Stormknife]

Assuming I'm reading your posts correctly...which I may not be, since you're rather difficult to understand.

The whole point of Hide in Plain Sight is that you disappear even while being watched by other people. The shadows contort to conceal you (shadowdancer, assassin) or you are just so damn good at natural camo that you fade into your surroundings (Ranger). Does it stretch reality? Yup. So does throwing a fireball (wizard), or transforming into a grizzly bear (druid), or naturally healing just because you're part demon (warlock).

Does HiPS work exactly like it does in tabletop? No. Does that mean True Seeing should automatically equal stealth-be-gone? Definitely not. Spells should rarely, if ever, completely negate skill points.

And incidentally, the reason you would take 1 level of SD in NWN1 was the lack of cooldown timer on stealth. Infinite sneak attacks ftw.

To put it another way, stealth is a core feature of 4 individual classes: ranger, rogue, assassin, and shadowdancer. It's also a class skill for monks and bards. Note, I'm just talking about hide and move silently here. Why should 1 spell completely and utterly negate a core class feature? Why should 1 spell completely remove the need to bring along classes that actually have spot as a class skill when you need to be able to spot things? Answer: it shouldn't.

[Vahene]

Why should 1 spell completely and utterly negate a core class feature? Why should 1 spell completely remove the need to bring along classes that actually have spot as a class skill when you need to be able to spot things? Answer: it shouldn't.

This bears repeating.

Keep in mind, everyone, that no one will like everything about the game, and no one will ever, in my opinion, like or agree on how True Seeing should work, stealth, or even sleight of hand. I won't get on the stealing tangent because, quite frankly, the horse is starting to stink... however, since I played both a sorceress and a rogue in the last mod--I will say that TS is severely overpowered. I don't care how you manipulate it, you shouldn't be able to see someone trained in a core class skill. The check is in place for a reason, and it should apply to the spell, and not be negated because you happy to be a wizard, sorcerer, cleric or bard or anyone else with a freaking scroll.

-K, and my soapbox for the day

[monkeedu]

This topic has been a hot bed of emotional strife ever since the first persistent mod existed for NWN1. Bioware had to take liberties with the 3.0 DnD game rules to be able to apply them appropriately in a video game setting. Obsidian did the same with the 3.5 rules in NWN2. I think Bioware made a poor executive decision in terms of stealth mechanics, and Obsidian made a grave oversight in not addressing this issue.

The focus seems to be on Stealth vs. True Seeing, but I believe this debate is misplaced. True Seeing is not the counter for Stealth(Hide/Move Silently). The Spot skill is the counter for Hide, and the Listen skill is the counter for Move Silently. By not putting skill points into Spot/Listen and relying on True Seeing to see Stealthy characters is an abuse of the system much like grief stealing in my opinion.

If you were to read the actual spell description in the 3.5 DnD PHB, you would note that it specifically says True Seeing does NOT infer the ability to spot creatures using a mundane form of hiding, or the ability to see through mundane concealment of any kind (http://www.monkeedu.com/downloads/trueseeing.gif).

Since this is a video game and the mechanics of stealth do not allow for varying degrees of skill checks in bright light or otherwise, a compromise certainly could be made. Instead of the use of a spell never intended as a counter for stealth, perhaps increase the bonus to spot and listen checks for all areas. This makes it more difficult for stealth classes to operate, while not removing a core class skill all together. True Seeing would have to be modified to only see through illusions or other magical concealment, and players would be forced to use the Spot/Listen skills to combat Stealth, as the rules intended.

[monkeedu]

As far as pick pocketing goes, if left alone, the skill is a problem. It is a problem because there are many immature players out there who do not think of the consequences of their actions and care little for the enjoyment of the other people playing the game. It is also a problem because there appear to be no limits as to what can be stolen.

The PP skill, if altered, is a great RPing skill to have in a campaign for both PvE and PvP purposes. PvE stealing quests are a great idea, and fun for up and coming thieves, but PvP is where most RP values comes from. Removing the skill entirely is an extreme approach that really shouldn't be considered.

To make the PP skill less of a griefing tool, and more of an RP tool, a few things could be done. The first, and one of the more simple changes, set the not stealable flag on objects over a certain weight or length. Also, quest items are typically a good candidate for not stealable. A second change would for equipped gear, if it really is possible to steal in the first place. I have never heard or seen that happen. Equipped gear should either be unstealable, or have an enormous increase in DC. Third, characters that are browsing merchants need to be set off limits via code, not written rule. It is very difficult, especially for players with low resolution monitors, to have a shop window and inventory window open, AND keep watch for potential thieves. A forth change, related to merchants, are characters who have gone AFK. A tool could be designed that allows a character who is not in combat or in hostile territory, to put them in an AFK state, effectively stopping the ability to interact with them. This would include PP, bartering, and attacking. For all in game purposes they do not exist in the world. That player would have to activate the item again to set themselves back again.

One last note about PP; since people are using True Seeing to see Stealthy characters currently, they are neglecting the Spot skill, which also helps against PP.

[Wyvern]

To make the PP skill less of a griefing tool, and more of an RP tool, a few things could be done. The first, and one of the more simple changes, set the not stealable flag on objects over a certain weight or length. Also, quest items are typically a good candidate for not stealable.

This would have been in place from day one, if only the pickpocket flag was not broken specifically for items owned by a PC. It works for an NPC, not a player.

[monkeedu]

To make the PP skill less of a griefing tool, and more of an RP tool, a few things could be done. The first, and one of the more simple changes, set the not stealable flag on objects over a certain weight or length. Also, quest items are typically a good candidate for not stealable.

This would have been in place from day one, if only the pickpocket flag was not broken specifically for items owned by a PC. It works for an NPC, not a player.

Awesome. I didn't know that. I haven't worked in the NwN2 toolset much. It seems there aren't many aspects of the game that do not have bugs.

[roxydreams]

hmm, after reading this i do have one thing to say:

yes, true sight does not see mundane kind of hiding.

but HIPS is not mundane kind of hiding. i think you put it quite nicely when you said "bends the shadows around them". there is nothing mundane about bending shadows. not only that but you must have shadows to bend, no? so standing in the middle of a sun lit street without any shadows within 10 feet would make it kind of hard to bend them, no? also if you state that you can use a persons shadow, well, a big black blob of shadow moving on its own would be quite noticable, eh? so the point is, HIPS is NOT mundane in anyway.

unfortunatly that is NOT true for a ranger, ugh. the ranger does "fade" into their surroundings kind of like the Marine Sniper and such.

also, normal corner sneaking would be considered "mundane" and unfortunatly true sight does not take this into account.

hence:

if you ARE going to nerf anything, and it is true sight, fine. but dont make it a 5th level spell anymore as all it is is see invisible with perks.

simply remove true sight altogether or put a BIG warning somewhere that says "true sight is see invisible, dont waste the spell slot".

now, there are a lot of spells that counter skills. i am not sure where comming off and saying "no spell should ever counter a skill" comes from. many spells counter many skills.

but HIPS is not broke in NwN2. it has a cool down and there are many classes that get spot and listen as skills. also you have a feat that makes it only cost 1 skill point to get out of class skills. so i wont "argue" the point of true sight nerf. just please do not get nerf happy.

PP, that is a different story. if you have a lot of griefers out there, you need to fix it.

[Wyvern]

I dont think anyone said:

"no spell should ever counter a skill"

The closest quote I could find in this thread is this:

Why should 1 spell completely and utterly negate a core class feature?

There is a difference between "counter" and "completely negate".

I doubt anyone here will disagree that there are plenty of spells which counter various skills.

On a side note, I dont think any of the staff here want to play the nerf game, but true seeing was one that was adjusted in the first campaign in NWN 1 - for the better I believe. But we also locked shadowdancer as a playable class. That isn't the case in this campaign. The truth is, we haven't seen the effect any class, shadowdancer or otherwise, has on the campaign, in PvP, or PvE. So dont expect any change soon. All I can say is that any nerf considered wont be without a lot of thought.

[roxydreams]

yeah, i mis-read that one.

also, because of the fact that "HIPS" covers a few different ways of "hiding", not just shadowbending now, and true sight covers a few different ways of detecting, not just seeing the invisible and magicly hid, i am a bit divided on this.

the fact is that i just dont like the idea of playing the nerf game. in the end it usually becomes more of an issue than not nerfing anything in the first place. the arguments, the griefing and such. i once posted in a different servers forum that the one thing anyone should do is learn from past mistakes and not repeat the errors of others.

but as you said, and i trust in what you say and do, you will observe the effects greatly. this is a "beta" after all. the idea of a beta is to test the things that are and those that need changing, no?

lastly, i will not be dragged into the constant arguing and griefing that seems to always be created by the HIPS ideas. i will abide by and follow anything that the staff here decide is best for the server. once the decision is made, i will debate the ponit no more.

i believe everyone here can admit if they made a mistake, so if it ends up that HIPS becomes an issue, i can see staff deciding one way or another for the best of the server.

[Wyvern]

I think that the fact that HiPS is on a cooldown timer now will change things greatly. Couple that with the ability to alter the duration of that cooldown timer very quickly with a fairly minimal serverside change, I doubt there will be a significant nerf on this sort of ability. I personally am also anti-nerf, but I am also anti-grief/abuse. I do not believe in class balance - it is an illusion and I've seen what chasing it can do to a server so I dont believe in making changes for this reason. But if an ability, spell, or whatever stands out head and shoulders as something that is basically an "I win" button, then we will take a closer look at it. The problem then becomes, once you cut down the tallest tree, the second tallest then takes its place. When do you stop? That is where the danger lies in the nerf game.

[monkeedu]

The problem then becomes, once you cut down the tallest tree, the second tallest then takes its place. When do you stop?

Just call me Paul Bunyan. Just kidding. That was a great analogy and good responce.